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Developing a Winning Brand for Your Nonprofit with Jawansa Hall
Blackwater Branding is an award-winning visual branding agency that designs for print, web and social mediaplatforms. We work closely with each client to create a digital experience that not only drives communication andinteraction, but also commerce and brand awareness.
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Hugh Ballou: Hey, it’s Hugh Ballou again on The Nonprofit Exchange from central western Virginia Appalachians. I think we’re going to get a little snow tonight. Russell David Dennis, you’re in mountain-high Colorado. How are you today sir?
Russell Dennis: It’s a beautiful day here in Aurora, Colorado. We’ve got sunshine in just a tad under 50 degrees, which is wonderful for December. Thank you, Jawansa for joining us.
Jawansa Hall: Thank you for having me.
Hugh: Jawansa, we like people to tell a little bit about themselves. I always hate when people introduce me and they make up all this stuff. I go, I wonder who that is. Even if I wrote it, they embellish it. Tell us a little bit about yourself, what you’re doing, what’s your background, and why did you choose branding as a career?
Jawansa: A little bit about me. I’m a graphic designer by trade. I have about 15 years’ experience in graphic design. Branding was a natural maturation. As I begin to look more into what happens on the advertising and marketing sides of things, I saw some areas that I felt I could be useful in and could bring some clarity to as well. So many people think that when you have a logo or have a design, that’s all you need. That’s the brand. The brand is the logo itself. Coming from the graphic design portion of things, I was able to dig in and explain visually how there is a lot more strategy that needs to be involved than just saying, “Hey, I have a really nice logo. Now I’m ready for the world.”
Hugh: You opened up a can of worms here.
Russell: What are some things that a brand is supposed to do for an organization? What is that? What are some things a brand does for an organization?
Jawansa: I think Seth Goden, who I’m a big fan of, said it best when he said that a brand is the sum of the words and the pictures and the values of a business or organization. In the case of a nonprofit, that’s what your brand has to do or should be able to do. You want to be able to sum it up. That’s something that I was talking to my colleagues earlier. That’s something we’re seeing across the board. A lot of organizations have an identity crisis. They are not able to pinpoint who they are because they do so many great things. When it comes to explaining those great things, even to donors, they tend to struggle.
Russell: It’s about a big, bold promise, the impact that people get from taking in the services that a nonprofit offers, working with them. The place that people start and where you take them to. When you speak with someone and they are having difficulty articulating that, talk a little bit about some of the things that you do to help them hone that message.
Jawansa: The big thing I love to do is we try to get them in and have a strategy session with them. We focus on let’s turn your brand or your entity or your nonprofit into a physical person. If that person had a name, what would that name be? Where would they hang out? What do they like to eat? We try to paint a picture for them. Your brand is someone you would either want to hang out with or not want to hang out with. Who do they remind you of? Does your industry remind you of your uncle? Is it your college buddy? Whatever it is, that’s where we begin, or the first stage we try to take them to.
Russell: Is there a place where most organizations get stuck when they are trying to articulate their brand?
Jawansa: I think for me, what I see is that they tend to want to have it all. They want to say they do everything under the sun. It’s very hard to get them to pinpoint what their specialty is. I remember talking with a couple of clients actually. “What industry or market do you want to focus on?” Their answer was, “We want to sell to everybody.” Everybody isn’t an answer. We have to be able to pinpoint where the focus has to be. It’s getting everyone wrangled in and going through a format that funnels those thoughts.
Russell: What is it that causes people to resist maybe honing in on a focus? Are there common points of resistance to that?
Jawansa: I think they’re not able to- Oftentimes, we’re too close to the work. We’re too close to what we love, or an idea, or even an angle that we want to present or see things done. We have oftentimes in our mind what needs to happen and how it should look. If you’re not able to let go of those ideas or wrangle those ideas in until it’s cohesive, there tends to be a lot of pushback or resistance. In those cases, what we try to do is show where the idea is viable, show where it’s a good idea, but maybe this isn’t the best placement for it. Oftentimes, we can circle back and use it in a different form or entity.
Russell: What do you think, Hugh? That sounds like a little bit of a strategy problem, wouldn’t you say?
Hugh: It does. I would think, Jawansa, setting up the strategic framework for the organization, what’s the problem we’re solving, where do we want to be in five years. The strategy for me is where do you want to be, and how are you going to get there? Someone with your skillset would say, Okay, let’s drill down on what people should be saying about you when you’re not there. I heard you say something I hear a lot. When people are asked who their market is, they say mundo, the world. Everybody. I understand from marketers that if everybody is your market, you don’t have a market.
Hugh: There are different parts of branding. Let’s tell people our secret. I invited you, and you accepted to join the Lynchburg Symphony Orchestra board. I did it on impulse. It seems you have a music background I didn’t know about. I thought you would be a good fit. We have a pretty logo that was developed by a good graphic artist. They said we have a brand. I said, wait a minute, no, we don’t.
Jawansa: We have the beginning of a brand.
Hugh: We have a strategy. You and I have yet to talk about what it is and how we manifest it. We are building audiences (plural). In three days, where I’m conducting, Russell, our concert is going to represent the demographic and psychographic of Lynchburg. It will have all of God’s people under one roof. In order for us to have effective messaging, Jawansa is going to help us form a marketing committee to develop our brand. In an organization like ours, where we have a pretty picture, we’re doing stuff, but we’re not really attracting the attention that we deserve, how do you start the conversation about developing a brand? There are lots of components to brand image, the brand promise, the brand identity. There are a lot of components to a brand. Sometimes, people just want to shut down because there is too much to think about. But it’s essential. If we’re going to crack the market we want.
Jawansa: I agree. I think I’d like to start with the positioning. What thought does the symphony have in everyone’s mind? What thought does that have in donors’ minds? How does that relate to what’s been done as well as some ideas of what we can do? Try to bridge that gap. As I’m listening, and continuing to observe as well as talk with others who love and have attended other symphonies, I’m thinking that’s where there’s a gap, is what we want to deliver, what the community views, and the direction that everyone would like to take things in.
Russell: It’s a question of finding out what’s important to each different audience. How much does branding have to do with actually finding out who your audience is? In other words, what is the proper order? Does the brand come first? Does the demographic you’re going after come first?
Jawansa: To me, you need to know your demographic. You can build the brand around that. Also, marketing and branding, they have similarities and overlap, but marketing comes later, if you ask me. Let’s understand the demographic first. Then let’s put the brand in place. Now that the brand is in place, let’s do the marketing. Now we know who we’re marketing to, and it will also give us some goals and numbers to pinpoint or look forward to. Otherwise, we’re shooting in the dark. I definitely don’t want to do that, nor do I want to have my clients feeling like we’re feeling around for an answer. I like us to know we’re aiming for a 90% return or an 80% return, and we’re able to pinpoint that and say, “Hey, we hit the mark. We did great,” or “Ooh, we missed the mark, but here’s why.” Those things are vital. The order matters to me.
Hugh: I think you’re building a foundation and you’re adding on the different rooms to it. You have referred to you want to make sure the donors know what’s going on. In the case of the symphony, we are selling event tickets. 40-50% of our budget comes from ticket sales. Two years ago, we were in a bigger hall because the one we’re in was being renovated. This hall seated 2,000, and we had 300 people. The board was saying, “Why don’t people come?” We weren’t doing diddly of a good job. In the words of co-publisher of Nonprofit Performance 360 Magazine Jeff Magee, “We suck. Suck is halfway to success.” We really didn’t- We ran a couple of print ads. There was no targeted client for it. We splattered a few things. Last year, this concert, we sold out. We’re inches away from being sold out for Friday’s performance. It will be 830 tickets. That’s all this hall will hold. There is an energy when it’s full that helps us meet our budget. But those are people who are coming with a specific expectation.
Having a brand is what you build your marketing around. You don’t do your marketing program, but you have your strategy and your brand put together and parallel to that is your development plan where you will raise grant money, sponsor money, donor money, and all of that, in addition to the other things. I think there is a synergy with all of these as they work together.
How would you encourage a leader in the board, in the staff, that they really realize that we’re not reaching the people we want, and we have to sit down and think about your brand? Where is the starting place? How would you encourage them to begin this conversation?
Jawansa: I think that goes back to creating that brand voice, that persona I talked about at the beginning. Let’s take a step back and see what that person looks like and sounds like and feels like. From there, we can ask the big question. Does this individual reflect who is coming through our door? Does it reflect a demographic or an audience we’d like to focus on that we don’t have? It gives us the opportunity to ask some yes and no questions and check the temperature of our efforts. I think without that, then we’re back to where we say we’re feeling in the dark. We’re happy about the success and the growth is great. I love to hear that. But if we want to go in a fresh direction, or continuing to expand on that, I think being able to know what our persona is, what is the symphony’s persona so that we can give that to the community is the way to go. That’s the starting point.
Russell: Some organizations might approach you and say okay, well, we don’t really know who our target audience is, or who’s coming through the door. What are some things that some organizations have access to that they might not be aware of that can help start that process of defining that audience more specifically?
Hugh: It’s free, and people don’t really utilize it for all it’s worth: social media. Being able to tap into Instagram or Facebook. These things have such amazing analytics that are connected to them that we can pinpoint demographics, age, sex, the actual community or area where your audience is coming from. For example, some of the work that I’ve done with our local minor league baseball team here, we were able to pinpoint that a lot of the community was actually about 35 years old and female. Us finding that out, well, that changed the way we did our promotions. It changed the way our materials looked. It helped us increase our walk-up from 40%, just from changing those things. It wasn’t until we looked at the analytics and found out that that personality that was coming into the park was more female than male that we were able to make that adjustment.
Russell: Facebook does have very good demographics. There’re also some tools that Google gives people access to. Make use of those. Do many people have those things plugged into their website? How easy or difficult is it to get those things plugged in so you can begin to gather the information you need?
Jawansa: Most Google Analytics is as simple as a line of code. It’s knowing where to put it. There are other analytics that we can run if you’re using Facebook Ads. There is a lot of information we can pull from those. Setting that up is a little more tricky. Once that information is in place, you can utilize it in an amazing way and create a lot of avenues for you to gain information that you can use for years and years to come. That would be the direction I would focus on or push anyone into: utilizing your social media, getting your information out to those audiences so you can begin to get back who is talking, who is connecting with you. It will give you a great ballpark figure, or at least a good place to start. That’s something I would recommend.
Russell: What would be a realistic time frame for a nonprofit or organization to zero in on the key elements of their audience?
Jawansa: Earliest, you’re looking at about three to four months. That’s enough for you to be able to run a couple tests and put some feelers out and see the responses you’re getting. Maybe your audience doesn’t respond to Q&A. If you’re asking questions, and you don’t see the kind of responses you want, switch it up. See if it’s something based around leaving imagery. If I post a picture, leave a caption, does that invoke more likes? Does that invoke more comments, more engagement, than me writing the questions out? Do a couple of feelers. See what works for your demographic. Take all of that, and keep it in mind going forward. That’s why I say give it about three to four months at the earliest. Of course, the longer you go, the more information you have, and the more sound decisions you can make.
Russell: I would venture to guess, and you can tell me if I am off base or close, but the effectiveness of your reach depends on where your audience is. There are a lot of different tools. The best tool would probably be a fit for an audience or an organization. How do you help an organization make a determination of what sorts of things would be best to try for your initial tests?
Jawansa: That once again goes back to that personality. If we see from the forming of a personality that their voice is a friendly, expressive style of person, then we’re probably going to lean more toward using Instagram and telling your story through pictures. If you’re more of a driven, results-based, very A-type, by the book, we might lean toward LinkedIn and using that platform of social media to connect with your audience. It is all based upon that test we put together to see what kind of persona it is in the first place.
Russell: That’s a lot. There is a mountain of tools out there. In that discovery session, you probably hone in on good starting places for people to start building that. A lot of people may think that the process of building a brand is difficult. Is that the case, or is it more a case of actually taking the time with a focused effort and a strategy?
Jawansa: It’s not difficult, but it can be time-consuming. I think a lot of people try to rush the process because they want to get to see a result. It’s like we want the beach body, but we don’t want to go to the gym.
Russell: I worked out once. That didn’t work. Might as well give up. I was sitting there for 20 minutes!
Jawansa: I did sit-ups this week, and I ate a steak, so I tried. But yeah, I think that’s a lot of the cases that I tend to see. These individuals or agencies, they want the big results, they want the wow, but they don’t want to take the time. That’s a bit of a hurdle to jump. But getting everyone to slow down to go through the process and trust the process, then we’re able to get to the results they want.
Russell: I imagine that process is extended when you’re attempting to do as much of this as possible organically, to budget constraints.
Jawansa: We’re always working within the budget. We’re always working within the constraints they give us. Also, we’re always trying to push nonprofits to get their brand beyond being a tool that’s just used for fundraising. We understand the importance of fundraising. There are so many other platforms that we’re able to tackle. So let’s try to build something that’s well-rounded as opposed to one-dimensional.
Russell: I think a lot of it revolves around storytelling and making connections. People don’t necessarily get the causes, they get to other people. As a general rule, are there some tools that you find are more effective for storytelling than others?
Jawansa: That’s a good question. For me, I think video is a huge avenue. Of course, content is king. Mixing video with really strong content is the best way to get the story out. It allows for strong narratives to take place. We can get stories down to 60 seconds. Being able to bounce between that and the content itself, that’s really a strong way to go.
Hugh: Makes me wonder. Is there a mindset shift that needs to happen with leaders in order fully- You said a while back sometimes we are too close to it. I help other organizations build their strategy. People then think I could do it for myself? No. I’m in the middle of it. I get it. I tell people, and they go, What? How do we have a change in mindset? We are really clear on what we’re doing, and we want to blame other people for not getting it. I’m sure there is people that want you to do their magic, but you can’t’ help them, so you have to turn them down because they are not teachable. What is the mindset shift that needs to happen?
Jawansa: I think the big component that needs to be shifted is control. The feeling that we have to be in control of every component in order for it to be great. I think if we can begin to back away from that, and the relinquishing of control, if we can wrap our mind around that component, I think everything else begins to fall into place. As a leader, you’re looking at data, you’re looking at your team, you’re looking at whatever product or goal it is you’re trying to achieve, and you often feel like you have to be in control of all these different components in order for them to be successful. If you’re able to take that step back and say, I can let someone else take the reins and trust that they’re going to get me to where I want to be, then the results will be yielded. That’s the part that I see so many people struggle with.
Hugh: There are people who are very good at creating an identity, like I notice behind you there is an Irving Penn picture, and the Weegee picture of the infrared picture of the theater. I don’t know if those are physical pieces. The glasses, that is a famous photographer, Weegee, Arthur Fellig, who had two cameras, one with a wide angle, and one with a slight telephoto, two Leicas. He did everything with two cameras and two lenses, which he never, ever changed, which was quite remarkable. But they were signature pictures. His work represented who we are.
You’re getting on board with the Lynchburg Symphony. We have a new conductor this year. We are shaping the artistic content. It’s a new day. It’s really important for us to get our act together now and be sure people know who we are. They might show up by accident, but we really need to attract the people who want to come. We’re doing pretty good. It’s Christmas. It’s at a great theater. I’m conducting. What more could they ask for? We got the choir that opened the theater. Last year, 60 years, it was closed. It never had been integrated. This choir is singing some traditional spirituals of the season for us. We have a children’s choir and a mixed choir of community leaders I’ve been leading. We also have our own home base symphony with a soloist. We really packed the stars on stage. That’s a draw. People are coming to this concert because it’s a special celebration for them. We can’t sell that 11 other months of the year. For us to be able to say, This represents the Lynchburg Symphony, or the Food Bank, or the Salvation Army, or the Community Foundation. There is a lot of misconceptions out there about the work of nonprofits.
Russell: I think the gist of what he’s addressing is that year-round presence, and how important is that year-round presence to the branding? How do you help people capture that so that they can work at having their brand put them top of mind for the work they’re doing?
Jawansa: I think a way that I would recommend is actually creating brand ambassadors. Let’s get a local group of individuals that support the brand, support what you want to do. They’re faces in the community. If we can get them of varying ages, that would be great. Let’s let them do some of the lifting for us and speak for us. That’s something we can continue on beyond the holiday season. We can have them strategically placed. If the demographic is broad enough, having them speak online or leave these influential messages on social media. The tying begins to happen that we’re looking for.
Russell: What’s the best way to create a dialogue or regular engagement? Are there some ways to do that that are more effective than others? Is that something you find out as you work through the information that you have and start establishing relationships with your current demographic and so forth?
Jawansa: It’s something where it varies. I try to tell everyone we work with that. The process is never cookie cutter. But there are a lot of things that will overlap. What works for one organization may not necessarily work for another. Of course, there are trends. Some things will be duplicated. But it’s never a cookie cutter process.
Russell: What’s the best way to find out what works for a particular organization?
Jawansa: You can look at what they already have done and see that track record. If you have a lot of good things working, there’s no reason to reinvent the wheel. But if there are areas that are new that you’re looking to get into, understanding that voice and having that brand persona in place becomes vital. With the brand ambassadors, creating multiple avenues that lead back to your industry or your business. That’s what you want.
Russell: Talk a little bit about some of the things that make a brand ambassador effective. What are some of the skills that they need to bring to the table?
Jawansa: First and foremost, an audience. They have to have their own audience, their own level of influence among their groups. These are the kind of individuals where if they wore a sweater, they have anywhere from 200-800 people who are happy to see them in this sweater. They come with an audience. They’re likeable. They push the letter, but not to the point where they’re abrasive. That’s some of the things you want to have in play. If it’s a physical product, then having someone that is athletic, if it’s an athletic piece. If it’s something art-based, then having individuals who are well-known and respected and connected in the art community. That’s a great tool to have, as far as being an ambassador.
Hugh: You can hear me now? You’re lucky you didn’t hear the age thing. I think God cut my mic off.
Russell: See, that’s what happens. I’ll explain later. We’re almost through 2019. He can do this.
Hugh: I can remember when Russell had dark hair. We’ve introduced a lot of topics here. What I’m thinking is encouraging an organization to have the discipline to go through the steps. You do a strategy, integrate the strategy into performance. You develop the brand, then integrate that with the strategy and then build a marketing program to expose your brand and your brand promise, and to connect with people. Over a period of time, this doesn’t happen overnight, but it doesn’t take forever either. Do you recommend nonprofit boards huddle and do a power weekend and put a thinking cap on and create the documents? Or do you suggest they do it in phases? What’s most effective to work on the strategy, the marketing plan, and the whole brand creation?
Jawansa: I’m a huge fan of the power weekends, where we come together and are able to block off a large chunk of time. We’re going to sit here and move through it. It doesn’t mean that it all gets done, but we can accomplish a lot in those sections. Maybe if we had three of those sessions broken up over once a month, we could knock the whole process out. We’re expediting so much of the work. Some of it can’t happen all at once because we have to take data back and crunch those numbers and see the result of what we want to see happen. Maybe we get the information together, and now we’re going to present it during an event. Now we’re going to get the information back from that event. Based on that, when we meet next time, we know what we need to tweak, what we don’t need to tweak, what worked well, and any additional feedback. It’s a group effort. It’s not something I would say is a one-and-done. It may be a two-part process, three-part if it’s large enough. For a nonprofit, probably a two-part process.
Hugh: It’s all hands on deck.
Hugh: There is a synergy in people coming together and pooling their ideas and energy. In my world, the planners and the doers are the same people.
Jawansa: Yes, most often.
Hugh: Too often, if I’m going to do it for them and give it to them, that will just cut them off on the knees. It won’t do anything because it’s not their plan.
Talk about the people side of the brand. We’ve seen brand slaughter. My friend David Corbin was on a year or so ago with the book Brand Slaughter, where somebody absolutely destroys the brand. There was big brand destruction for an airline, where somebody dragged somebody off the plane. I won’t say the airline’s name, but the initials are United. There was a lot of brand damage from that. They are still in business.
People represent your brand. We won’t invite just anybody onto the board or to volunteer or on a committee. I didn’t haphazardly invite you. I have known you for a while. I know your reputation. I know the value you bring before I meet you. Talk about the relationship that involves board members and constituents and how that relationship manifests in the brand image. They are part of the brand.
Jawansa: Every individual, it’s like a cog within a watch. Whether some of the cogs are large or small, each component is needed. When you sub out a cog, you have to find one that fits that replacement piece. It doesn’t necessarily need to be the same, but it needs to be able to work within the rest of the watch. For members of the board or individuals on a board, personalities matter. You don’t have to have everyone have the same idea, but there should be a similar ideology that weaves everyone together. For the symphony, it should be I would say a love of music. It doesn’t necessarily mean that we all like Chopin or Bach, but it does mean that we all have an appreciation of music itself. That should be a commonality that we can connect on at the end of the day. The individual matters. The people matter. The way we utilize them also matters.
Hugh: A lot of us think we are doing it. Is there board training relevant to how to do all this, and how to be representative of the brand? There are brand identity and brand promise statements. When you come to a symphony concert, you will experience fine quality music in various styles, different genres, and different locations. There is something that appeals to everybody in Lynchburg. Our commitment is we do a lot of that at the Christmas program. The next program will be Broadway. We aren’t doing any Broadway this time. We did Beethoven last time. The next one will be Bach. That’s a little narrower demographic, but likewise, record labels still sell a lot of this music. There is a different audience for each one of these.
Jawansa: I think that’s beautiful because that goes back to the example of the cog. Each component is a little bit different. That’s okay. Every board member is a little different. That’s okay. The thing weaving us together is the appreciation of that music. The thing that weaves us together is when you have a great executive director, someone overseeing everything that happens, and they are able to pull the intricacies out of these individuals and make them feel wanted and appreciated for the time they’re giving. There are so many components in place that someone like me that comes in from the branding and marketing side, I’m looking at all those pieces. That’s included and should be included when we talk about the identity of the brand. You also have to include the board.
Russell: What is the best way to communicate that or train that? In bringing the message together, is there a process for training folks so that everybody is signing off the same sheet of music in terms of articulating that brand? Would it be the same for volunteers or staff? How do you bring that all together so everyone is communicating that message once you’ve honed it in?
Jawansa: That’s part of our strategy session we do. We walk you through a series of questions, which allow you to funnel that thought into a single sentence. By the end of the session, we’ve created an individual. We also have a statement or a positioning that we’re going to take. All of these are one or two sentences that the board itself then gets to agree on. Now we’re looking back and are able to see, we as a board are saying that we are A, B, and C. Do we agree with that as a board? Maybe we do, maybe we don’t. If we don’t, we go back through certain components of the process so we all have that agreement and are able to walk out on the same page. There is a little bit of teaching that’s involved. It’s not long. It’s painless. It’s just a part of the process we work through. As Hugh talked about, having that in the power session, maybe you spend a couple hours on a Saturday working that out. But then you get to leave knowing where you stand, and you have direction moving forward. That goes back to when we first started the conversation, and I was saying there is almost like an identity crisis that is taking place. By the end of these sessions that we hold, that identity should be clear, something that we understand who you are and what you’re about or what the organization is about. It’s malleable for everyone there.
Russell: Is there a rhythm or frequency where you check in to look at how effective- once you have that message honed in and everybody in the organization is clear on it, checking to make sure that it’s being delivered in a way that resonates with the audience. How frequently do you check that to see if the audience is, so to speak, on the same page to make adjustments if necessary?
Jawansa: We do that on a monthly basis. Every 30-31 days, we like to check back in, especially after events. That is where we get to use the litmus test and see, Okay, are we in alignment with the position we took? That’s always an avenue we can take. Sometimes, I see agencies that are scared to back up and say, Okay, that did not work. Let’s all agree that it didn’t work. Let’s go back and do something completely different. That’s something I don’t mind doing. I am far more concerned with being successful- I’d rather say I was wrong and let’s back up and get it right than forge ahead.
Russell: What are some of the best metrics to look at to see how effective your messaging is?
Jawansa: Once again, social media would be engagement. If it’s an event, then it would be the turnout or the walk-up. What I love best is when we have a great event, and that event transfers over the next two to three days in online conversation. Pictures are posted. Hashtags are used. We see examples of people sharing photos and wanting to relive the event. We’ve had that a couple times. I love when we can see that. That is a huge gauge for us and lets us know we are doing well.
Hugh: You have given us an ample and incredible amount of stuff to think about. Now, you live and work in Lynchburg, Virginia. We are in the same city. It’s big enough for both of us. You probably work with people anywhere.
Jawansa: Definitely. It doesn’t have to be in Lynchburg. We help people in California. We have some clients in Chicago and in Florida. Wherever we can get in and make a difference.
Hugh: Jawansa’s website is BlackWaterBranding.net. He’s got quite a team surrounding him. You are the brilliance behind the vision, and you have a team behind you.
*Sponsor message from WordSprint*
Jawansa, as we close out this really helpful interview, what thought or challenge or tip would you like to leave people with today?
Jawansa: I’d like to leave them with a challenge. That challenge is to be able to tell your origin story clearly and concisely. That would make a massive difference in launching your brand.
Russell: Thank you, Jawansa, for all of your wisdom here.