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Nonprofit Performance 360 Magazine: The Leadership Resource for Nonprofit Executives

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In it’s third year of publication, Nonprofit Performance 360 Magazine set’ records for quality and inspiration. Dr. Todd Greer, editor shares his vision for starting this great resource and his vision for the future.

Todd Greer holds a Ph.D. in organizational leadership with a major in human resource development from Regent University in Virginia Beach, Virginia; a Master of Science in ministerial leadership from Amridge University in Montgomery, Alabama; completed graduate work in communications studies at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan; and a Bachelor of Arts in communication studies from Defiance College in Defiance, Ohio. He has numerous publications to his credit, including journal articles and book chapters, and has presented at national conferences.

He has served as lead instructor and board member with the Mobile Area Chamber of Commerce’s Innovation PortAL and instructor for the Chamber’s Young Entrepreneurs Academy for high school students. He is a board member for United Way of Southwest Alabama and Springboard to Success Inc. which, with the Downtown Mobile Alliance, operates the Urban Emporium retail incubator. He is an advisory board member with Veterans Recovery Resources.

He was an instructor with University of South Alabama’s Minority Business Accelerator and an adjunct instructor at Spring Hill College.

Previously, Greer was executive director of the SynerVision Leadership Foundation in Blacksburg, Virginia; minister of administration for Glen Allen Church of Christ in Glen Allen, Virginia; and head boys’ volleyball coach at Highlight Springs High School and assistant women’s volleyball coach at Virginia Union University, both in Richmond, Virginia.

 

Read the Interview

Hugh Ballou: Greetings, and welcome to today’s session of The Nonprofit Exchange. Today, we have a very special guest. Russell, it’s the first time you’ve met Todd Greer. Dr. Greer was the one who started The Nonprofit Exchange. He is the founding and current editor of Nonprofit Performance Magazine. Todd, welcome.

Todd Greer: Thank you so much, Hugh. Great to be with you. Russell, I’ve heard such wonderful things about you, and it is great to at least virtually connect with you here.

Russell Dennis: This is great. I’ve done my best to bring out your inner English teacher.

Todd: It’s important. Gaps. Hugh mentioned I was the editor as we started out. Hugh is definitely the publisher. He is not the editor. It is good to have other folks around like you, Russell, to help keep him in check.

Russell: It takes a village. That is why there is more than one of us there.

Todd: There you go. Absolutely.

Hugh: The vision for The Nonprofit Exchange is to interview experts in different fields and to bring really good leadership principles into charities and churches and synagogues, often from business leaders. Todd, in addition to having your Ph. D in organizational leadership, you are ordained as a pastor, and now you are a dean at the University of Mobile. Am I correct?

Todd: That is correct. It has been an interesting transition. Hugh and I met in 2014. Hugh had this wonderful vision. SynerVision Leadership Foundation had the vision for a magazine and a community of nonprofit thought leaders that could help to build capacity and to help build and move things forward. I think it’s been a beautiful vision to see it come to light, to be something that I’ve been a part of and that has touched me deeply. Over the past two and a half years, I have been able to move down to Mobile from Virginia where he and I met, start a business down here, see that grow, and see a community of entrepreneurship really raise up. Now I have the opportunity to get in and engage with university students and to work to encourage them for the world that we’re inventing each day.

Hugh: We’re glad to have the academic connection. Even though you have gone on to do some other great stuff, you’re still shaping editorial policy. What we have done with the magazine is separate the commercial part from the editorial part. What I do is I’m the champion, and I bring people into the funnel that we set up so brilliantly and around the editorial policy that you shaped so that we keep it really clean and really valid journalism for leadership. Thank you for that contribution to humankind and to SynerVision.

You launched The Nonprofit Exchange, which we are doing at 2 pm on Tuesdays EST, and the podcast. We are hitting about 15,000 listeners on this particular podcast, and I have 10,000 on Orchestrating Success. We share some interviews in common, but they are helping people think through their skillset and organizational development and personal skills for developing their teams. Talk about three years ago in September that we launched that first John Maxwell edition. As you were shaping out the vision for this magazine, talk about your thought process. What was important about how you laid down the tracks, and what does that look like?

Todd: One of the things that we consistently saw as we were looking at the nonprofit space is that there is good research, and then there is speakers. Then there are some books that are written. But there is a gap in the middle. What we wanted to do was come in and give nonprofit leaders, whether they are board members, staff, or executives, the opportunity to be able to engage with deeper thoughts around a holistic idea.

What we started from that day forward is to create these themes within our magazine so that you could look at what we could consider an evergreen concept, something that is not based upon a specific time. It’s something that whether you are looking at it three years ago or today, the points are still valid, the theme is still important, it is something that drives home a needed opportunity in that space. We really worked to say, This is not an infomercial. This is not a chance to sell your book. This is not a chance to get yourself engaged in a speaking environment. This is really about bringing the best thought leadership from all over. We have worked with the athletic director of Virginia Tech. We have worked with bestselling authors. We have worked with professors from a number of top-notch schools across the country. We have worked with nonprofit facilitators. We have worked with people that do some speaking across the space. We have tried to engage and bring together for our listeners, for our audience, for our readers as many different engaging and unique perspectives that can help them move it forward. And the reality is we wanted a place that would challenge you. It’s one of those things that oftentimes it is very easy for us to become stagnant or to reach a plateau. If we are engaged with new people all the time, it helps.

The cornerstone of each issue, there are a couple things we wanted to lay out. One is we wanted to have that big name at that cover that you can look at. John Maxwell was quite a name to be able to start with. You see others that have gone on to head the cover of the magazine. They have done an amazing job.

We have wanted to make sure that each magazine touched on board relations. Each magazine touched on that sense of funds attraction. Each magazine talked about a couple things.

The second cornerstone of the magazine to me was the Nonprofits that Work Section. It’s great to be able to think about these huge nonprofits that have great budgets and are extremely well-known. But how do we seed this idea, this theme exemplified in the life of a nonprofit that is probably going to be one you have never heard of before? We have been able to show these organizations all across the country who are doing exciting things around that theme. It’s been one of those pieces where I have learned so many new amazing nonprofits to be able to point to them later on.

In fact, there was one that we worked with not that long ago, The Mission Continues. Hugh, I don’t know if you remember them from the work that we did with them, but it’s exciting right now because Aaron Scheinberg, who we worked with from there, he is running for Congress in West Virginia. He was somebody that we worked with not that long ago on that article. The Mission Continues was a veteran organization to work to continue to engage vets as they come back stateside to continue in that mission, working in the nonprofit community that surrounded them to engage in different missions. You get to see those kinds of things. It’s a beautiful thing to be able to engage and think about how all of the good ideas in nonprofit spaces don’t come from just nonprofits. They come from all over.

Hugh: Good principles are good principles. Part of your inspiration was to have a different theme for each edition. One of the real fun editions I remember was one with Frances Hesselbein on the cover, who is in her late nineties and is expert on millennials. We did this whole issue on millennials. You had an interest in it, as did I. I’m a boomer, you’re a millennial. My article was about how we have similarities in core values and principles. You had this really good interview with Frances. Those are the top downloaded interviews on the Nonprofit Exchange podcast.

Todd: Hugh, it’s a beautiful thing. Frances has now just turned 100 or 101. She is still kicking. I have seen a couple pieces from her recently. I was telling my daughter this last evening. My daughter is a Girl Scout. Frances was for about a decade and a half the CEO of the Girl Scouts of the USA. I was telling her, You have to understand the legacy of those that have gone. My daughter is a third grader. I was explaining to her that what Frances has done, and I use Frances a lot when I am speaking to students, to be able to understand what it looks like that she is engaging, to never stop learning, to always open doors for others in the sense of when you find trustworthy people who are passionate, give them an opportunity. Open the door for them. They may be young or different from you. Whatever it is, understand that everybody needs a door opened for them.

Hugh: Absolutely. You have crafted our submissions page. When you go to Nonprofitperofrmance.org, it will forward the URL to SynerVision’s magazine page. Then there is a submissions page so people who want to contribute can go there and submit articles. There is very clear guidelines for submissions. The boardroom issue is being designed now, and it will be printed and distributed before the end of this year. Since people are listening to podcasts maybe at any time, it’s important that the material on this podcast and in the magazine is timeless. Solid principle.

I am going to let Russ insert some questions. Russ, you have been a contributor for the magazine. As you look at the guidelines Todd has crafted, and specifically the identification of the theme- Russ is a very gifted writer. Russ is one of our WayFinders. I don’t know if you know that. He has gone through the certification. He is the first certified WayFinder, but we have some more in the chute. He is the guy forging the trail out there. Russ, how do the guidelines for writing and the description of the theme help you as a writer shape your contribution for that article?

Russell: It’s important to have a clear message that is direct, to the point, that has a lot of punch, and that forces you to really put your best thoughts on paper without any extraneous information. Also, it forces you to up your game because when you are looking at some of the people like Dr. Jeff Magee for example that are sending material into this magazine, you don’t want to send a piece in there that is less than your best. People turn to this because they want to know what sort of things they can do to really enhance their performance. What are some of the best practices out there? What are some things that you can take away from this article and actually make it actionable?

When I send a piece in, I ask myself what I want people to know, feel, and do. There should be one piece of actionable. If there is more than one, that’s better. Sometimes people can get confused. I am trying to either put a sequence of actions or sequence of things to look for or some sort of actionable piece that somebody can take and implement today. It’s important to be able to access, understand, and use that information.

I was just surfing the Web today, and I came across a list from an organization called Giving Confidence, which points you toward nonprofit resources. It’s five podcasts nonprofit people should listen to. I opened that in anticipation of seeing The Nonprofit Exchange. We’re not there yet. We’re going to make that list. They talk about why people should listen to that. We’ll just keep doing what we’re doing. At some point, we’re going to end up on that list. I think that’s a worthy goal for us to shoot for.

Hugh: I’m glad to know about that. Russell, you weren’t on the journey as we have gone forward. We are on our third year of the magazine, and it is hard to believe that we haven’t talked about it on the podcast. We have three years of podcasts. Lots of episodes out there. From an outside perspective catching up, what kind of questions do you want to pose to Todd about the history of the vision or the future?

Russell: One of the things I am interested in seeing, because you are in that university space, I was curious as to how many younger people like yourself are moving in to the space because they want to do work that matters and how many are looking at programs that focus on nonprofits and philanthropy. Are you seeing an uptick in that?

Todd: That is a great question. If you go back to the work that we did on millennials, that’s a huge issue. I don’t have the stats in front of me, but the vast majority of millennials say they want to be part of a company and work that makes an impact, and they will do business with a brand that makes an impact. We see a greater sense of social responsibility in this generation than any other generation in quite some time. There is still that struggle of a gap between what I want and what I’m willing to do. So we know that that’s not always something where that gap is closed. But we know that there is a desire.

We do see it among our students. We happen to be at a university that is a private Christian institution. We have that faith basis in our students where they do want to go make impact. Across the community here in the Mobile area and across the state and the country, we are hearing more and more about programs like social entrepreneurship coming up. We are seeing people including the Beet Corp and other groups where they are saying they think there is a blurring of the line coming before us between the typical business and the typical nonprofit or charity. They do want to engage. They want to do something.

The key right now that we are dealing with is how we make sure we are building the right capacity. I think that’s to your point. Historically, one of the things we have consistently seen is that the people who come in to the nonprofit space are people who are passionate about a cause. Passion is extremely important. Books upon books upon books have been written of the last decade or so just on passion and why you should pursue your passion. One of the things we are very mindful of—this has been part of the lynchpin for us for the beginning—passion without guidelines, passion without the right framework or strategy or understanding, can be very dangerous. We are asking questions here about how we cross the line between our school of business and our school of ministry, between our school of business and education, between our school of business and music. We are asking those questions. It’s already happening a lot in a lot of places, but you are going to see an increase in those.

Folks like Businesses Mission is a concept that has really come up over the last handful of years. You have schools that are developing these centers. They are getting out there and serving. We have a great opportunity. I think it means a lot to our communities. I think going back to that millennial piece, and even touching into our current issue that will be coming out here in December about the boardroom. One thing that is important for our nonprofits is to make sure that they are engaging millennials and thinking about what it looks like to have diversity from an age perspective on their board as well. I think the younger generations are incredibly excited about the potential to make impact in the world.

Russell: This is important. I have been engaged with my own church here in doing envisioning. We have been basing that on good to great for the social sectors. One of our local guys, Jim Collins, he is just up the road in Boulder. We started envisioning on that. One of the things that was said verbally was we really want to get young people involved. I dove into this process with him. I created a system to work with the faith-based community and created a coding system. What they say and what scores, there is a bit of a disconnect. This is something that is worth exploring further. We want younger people involved, but where are our actions leading us? There is an underlying- This wasn’t done to scale to any scientific scale or with the thought of statistical validity in it. There is a lot of open-ended stuff that is my own interpretation of it. It’s really interesting. I would love to share some of those codes with you, some of the coding idea with it.

The other thing I wanted to say is we have a very strong Businesses Mission chapter. As a matter of fact, I am going tomorrow morning to the monthly meeting.

Todd: That’s great. What you said is spot-on. There are two pieces that have really stuck out to me. I don’t know who said one, but I do know who said the other. Somebody said to me, “You will get what you celebrate.” Step back and think about it. In an organization, whether it’s a nonprofit or for-profit, you will get what you celebrate. You say you want something. If you don’t celebrate it when it happens, you’re not going to get it. That is the reinforcement. When you celebrate something, you are reinforcing that this is the culture we are working to establish.

Then the other piece is Chris Argyris. Chris was a theory guy. I want to say he was at Harvard Business School. One piece he brought to light is there is espoused values or theories, and there are values in action. There is often a discrepancy. You think about how many organizations you have come through. You see those values on the wall. You looked at those values and thought, I don’t see those organizations.

Hugh, you’re laughing because you have seen it countless times both in a religious environment and in other nonprofit organizations. It’s a hard thing. We set these ideals up, but we often don’t create a concrete way to establish those throughout the organization. Going back to the celebration, we often don’t celebrate when those things happen.

Hugh: We forget that, don’t we? I see Russell taking some notes. Russell grabs some sound bites in these that are very astute.

Russell, when you were talking about how you construct an article, that was really good information. What do you want people to do?

Todd, back to you. As we were putting this together back in the old days, was that part of our thinking? What do we want people to take away? You have a better recollection of some of this than I do. Your focus was on this more. What were some of the takeaways, the impacts, the results that we wanted people to have because they had the magazine?

Todd: There are a couple things that really stuck out in the early days we were doing it. Russell, I think you said it great: know, feel, and do. I want people to know, to feel, to do what I want. One of the pieces we said is leading in a nonprofit organization can be lonely. One of the things we wanted to establish is you’re not alone. You’re not alone in this journey. The things that you’re feeling are being felt all across the country by organizations big and small, by religious and those that are community-oriented in the nonprofit space. That was a big key for us because a lot of times when you are doing this on your own, who do you have to talk to? Can you share with your board these challenges? Can you share with your staff these challenges? Who can you talk to? A lot of times you are even afraid to share with other executives because you don’t want to feel like you’re the idiot in the room and you’re the one who is falling short when other people, at least what they present, seem so strong. We want to be very real. These are issues that we’re facing. That’s one of the things that comes up in each one of these themes. The acknowledgement that we are all facing them. We have challenges we are facing. We need a variety of voices to encourage us moving forward. That was a big piece.

Next to that is the big piece of we wanted to say this is more than just from the seat of our pants kind of framework. This is about how we work to establish real strategy in our organizations. I think that’s one of the pieces that often gets lost. We do without thinking of the strategy. You go back to Stephen Covey’s four quadrants. In the nonprofit space, because we are dealing with not an abundance of resources and staff, we are just going so fast through the things that become urgent or the things that flare up in front of us. We take care of those things. We don’t step back to create that holistic strategy. The magazine and podcast were intended to encourage us to really step back and think about our strategy around these types of subjects.

When we talk about leadership, what’s your leadership strategy? How do you build a leaderful organization? I am going to go back to Joe Raelin; he was one of our guests about two years ago from Northeastern University. How do you create leadership throughout your organization? We have talked about succession planning. How do you make sure that when you’re gone, the organization not only continues, but also thrives after you’re gone? That was a big piece to this.

We want you to think about that sense of strategy. What’s going on? What’s working? What doesn’t work? When we talked with Frances and Joan, we looked at Peter Drucker’s five most important questions. A lot of what they do is they want you to make sure you are periodically having that review process. For some time in our country, the after-action review was a pretty typical thing in certain types of organizations. In nonprofits, we don’t do enough of that now. What worked, what didn’t, how would we change it for the next time, and how do we continue to grow that to make sure that it’s better fitting our mission and our customer moving forward? I think that’s a really key issue that’s often missing.

Hugh, when you step back and think of all the organizations you’ve worked with, how many times do you see- In the for-profit world, we are talking about continuous improvement. Did you see a lot of that?

Hugh: No.

Todd: It’s something that I think we do. When the thing is done, we go, Whooo. That was long and that was tiring and I’m so glad that we can put that in a box for a year. The next year, we’ll pull that box out and regurgitate the same thing. We don’t think about, Hey, this is something. Heaven forbid we ask, Is this thing necessary anymore? Do I need to do this anymore? Are we just doing it because it’s what we’ve always done?

Hugh: Absolutely. I was thinking about Caesar when he lost his wreath. He got off his throne and there it was. He said, “I have been resting on my laurels.” We want to get there and rest. We want to think we’ve made a plateau and we can stop. That’s a dangerous place to be. I find that continuous improvement is the jargon in corporate America. What we work on in SynerVision is continuing improvement and personal development. The journey is never over.

Part of crafting the whole process and the whole design of the magazine is there is different categories. I forget what you call them, different categories. There is Member Engagement, Strategy, Point/Counterpoint, Executive Office, Grants Corner, Academic Desk, Design Corner, Nonprofits That Work, Board Relations, and Systems Thinking. Talk about why those categories. We have had something in those categories every single issue.

Todd: Those are big ones. We wanted to be able to really narrow in. One of the things that I think is way too easy when you are starting a magazine or any kind of medium is to say, “I’ll accept this” and have it in this vague space. We wanted to give people a way to look forward to new things that were coming. Some of the pieces we referenced before that featured personality in the Nonprofit Works and the Board Relations—one of the things that we wanted to engage in this is Design Corner.

One of the things in the Design Corner was always that idea that all too often, we tend to forget that things can look good and they can come together. In the church, for a long time, we lost our artists. We lost our designers and their input and their value. I think we are starting to see them come back again. The same thing is true in nonprofits. Just because you are a nonprofit doesn’t mean that your website has to be ugly or that your engagement with your members or your engagement with your community has to be lacking thought. We wanted to make sure that happens. What this does is it gives us a framework that when we are going out to seek contributors or contributors are coming to us, they know that this is the target I am seeking. We want to make sure that the people we have are experts. They really are bringing their game to the table, and it’s somebody that you can trust as you are hearing from them. I think that’s a really important piece for us.

Hugh, I want to touch on as well: We talked a little bit about this issue that is getting ready to go to print. I know some people will listen to this at some time in the future. One thing we have coming up is social media. Obviously, we don’t live in a world where social media is a might. I might do social media. Whatever your organization is, social media is really important. Going back to strategy, you have to have a strategy for it.

My wife and I were talking last night while watching an old episode of Madam Secretary. There is good and bad obviously about where we are in social media. Sometimes social media has created this perception of reality that is so far from it. It also has allowed people to get a platform that some people should never have. There are things that are going on where you think you never should have a platform. But nonprofits have a great opportunity to engage with their community, with their members, with their public through a very intentional strategy in social media. We want to make sure people are really conscious in thinking about it.

Another tendency is that we look at whomever is the youngest person on our staff and we say, “You’re in charge of social media,” just like we say, “You’re in charge of graphic design,” just like we used to say, “You’re in charge of web design.” We can’t just throw it on the youngest person. They may be good, but you have to have a real consistent strategy for you organization. What does this social media strategy look like throughout? What are organizations that are doing it really well? We always want to find those people who are exemplars in our field.

How does that impact the board? What’s the board’s role in that? Do you expect your board members to tweet out everything that is happening from your Twitter account? Do you expect them to engage? What does that look like? What are the expectations that you have? That one is coming up here soon.

Following that is what Russell and I were hinting at: this future of the public/private partnership. We are going to continue to see growth in that area. The moniker “charity” is something that really has a bad connotation in our society now. What a charity does is it comes without strategy and without fiscal strategy and they come and say, “Please give to me so that I can give to others.” We love to give. But we are asking the ROI question. Just like we asked return on investment, we are asking what the return is on my impact, on my giving in the nonprofit sector. We really want to make sure that we are thinking strategically not only about where we are at right now, but also about what is coming down the pipeline. How do we make sure that we build the right partnerships with the corporate entities in our environment? If we care about this issue and you care about this issue, how can we collaborate to be able to make real impact in our community?

Hugh: That’s a word that most of our charities don’t understand. Russell, we are rounding out to the final nine minutes of our interview. I am going to give you some more air time. You have some good questions. Is there one brewing for Todd?

Russell: When it comes to social media, it was interesting. I was at the Socratic café at the University of Denver. Me and a few other guys get together on Saturday nights to do that. We had an ongoing discussion for eight weeks about isolation. Social media came up, and one of them pointed out, “You seem to be very comfortable. I haven’t seen anybody your age that is that comfortable with social media.” I don’t know everything, but we talked about being isolated even though people are on social media.

There were a lot of things, pro or con, that were raised with social media. There is a balance to be struck, and it’s not totally evil or good. We want to be able to have these face-to-face interactions. There is nothing like face-to-face interaction. Social media is a tool. I think a lot of people view it as some sort of mysterious scale of people. After you turn 25, your brain oozes out of your ears, and you have no clue what to do. You have to find your children and your grandchildren. That is not the case.

What sort of things have you heard people talk about when you’re talking with them about using social media to engage? Is there some resistance? Is there some people who think it’s the Holy Grail? What are you hearing people talk about? I think it’s a great thing to devote a whole issue to.

Todd: Let me touch real quickly on something you said, and then I will come back to the questions themselves. You talked about isolation. That is a very big reality because it wasn’t until social media really crept up that we had this acronym FOMO: Fear of Missing Out. I think what it does is it drives us deeper into that sense of isolation because we don’t feel like we’re part of something, so we withdraw even more. Social media is amoral. It’s not moral or immoral. It’s amoral. It’s a tool. It’s a medium. It’s a channel. Yes. The question is how do we use this? That’s really important.

Yours, what kind of feedback are we hearing? In smaller, more traditional nonprofits that typically are led by older executives, there is a fear. How do I do it? How do I engage? What kinds of media do I put out there? Do I do it for my personal social media channels? I might have Facebook. Do I post about the organization on my personal page? Do I do it in the groups? How do I build a following? All of those are big questions. It’s not an easy thing. There is not really a one-size-fits-all response to that.

One thing that is important—and I know Hugh has done a masterful job in building that social media following. Hugh created a platform where he said I am going to focus on leadership. I am going to focus on how we empower people around leadership. When you see his messages, they are consistent. He is consistently posting about leadership and organizations, and he has built a following around a theme. In your nonprofit, that is a key thing for you. You have to own the space that you are in. You have to be mindful. It’s quick and easy to go chase the shiny object. We have talked about chasing money in nonprofits before. That is something that gets a lot of nonprofits off track. They go and chase money. The same thing is true with social media about chasing the shiny object. Not everybody has to have a perspective on every issue that comes up. When LeBron went to Miami, your nonprofit didn’t have to talk about LeBron going to Miami unless LeBron was the spokesperson for you in Cleveland. Then you might have something to say. It’s being mindful about putting your blinders on when you need to and knowing what you are good at and what you should be talking about. That is a big thing. Your following will come out when you are consistent in what you are talking about, when you have a definitive framing to your social media messaging.

We live in a world where the social media algorithms are consistently changing. It used to be photos, and now it is video. Video is the hot piece. Having opportunities. Here we are live on Facebook right? That is a really important thing. Whether it’s video chats or small snippets, you want to be able to create bite-size visual media because it is attractive. It will engage more people. It is more likely to be seen by folks than I ate nachos for dinner last night. Nobody really cares, unless you have a great picture of your artisan nachos with your tofu on it or whatever. Then people might care. But I think that is to make sure that when you do post something, you’re harnessing all that is available to you.

That is another piece. We will talk about it in the social media issue of the magazine. Something a lot of people don’t realize is there are very tangible ways for you and your nonprofit to be able to have good visuals. I know Hugh is an Apple guy. Apple made it very available for people to cut and edit simple but good, clean video. You have those more recently in a design perspective. I am blanking on the name here. Canva.com is an organization that came out. One of the pieces they wanted to promote was the idea that not everybody is a graphic designer and can afford a graphic designer, but everybody needs good design. They created a very simple free platform or premium platform where anybody can go in and create good design to be able to make sure that is consistent with their organization in the top-notch perspective.

Hugh: That’s great. We are doing the wrap here. We have had a really good session, Todd. Thank you for watching this with your vision that is continuing. I hope we continue to execute it faithfully. As you are sitting in this academic seat, you are still editor at this magazine and shaping the editorial policy in a really helpful way. Are there some points you want to leave people with before we end this information session?

I want to encourage people to go to nonprofitperformance.org and at least click on the virtual edition. 15,000 people read it every month. It’s a Flip file. Go in there and sign in. You can read the archive editions, and you can subscribe and buy issues. It’s very reasonable. If a nonprofit executive or pastor were to get issues for themselves and their whole board, then some people are on the same page, and it gives you something tangible to talk about, especially the board issue.

Todd, as we are exiting and wrapping up on this interview, what are some things you want to leave people with?

Todd: Hugh, when you go back to the initial vision, it’s the idea. How do we make impact in our communities? We really wanted to do that. When you talk about some of the download numbers for the magazine and the podcast and the video series, we started at zero. We started without subscribers. We started without followers. We started without any of that. If we can do it, you can, too. It’s really important to make sure you have a good message, that you have something people want to listen to, to follow, to read. But you can do it. You can make great impact in your community. You can do great things. You can build it if you want a platform. The key is that you just have to continue. What ends up happening is we see people in our community who start something and they’re not resilient enough when the challenges happen. Hugh, you know. Our core team that we started with, we have all gone through significant challenges, life changes, but the key is to continue through it and continue to work together. Truthfully, if you don’t like the people you’re working with, you probably won’t continue. We have had a great group of people, both our core team and folks who have come around us and great new faces like Russell who are able to invigorate and continue to move things forward. I think that’s really important for any organization. Make sure that you continue to invite new people in as you continue to hone what your message is. Have fun. Life is too short not to enjoy what you’re doing.

Hugh: Good, wise words. Russell, you can do it. We have fun. Todd, thanks to you. Thank you so much.

Todd: Thank you so much.

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