Are Websites Dead?
Pipp Patton Shares Ways to Engage New Supporters

Pipp I Patton is the co-founder of Search Intelligence LLC a digital marketing agency based in Tampa Florida. They specialize in SEO, sales funnels, and Facebook marketing. Pipp in a former life was a yellow pages rep back when your yellow pages directory was the search engine of choice.

Pipp is a recovering golf addict, loves to travel and enjoys finding new and interesting restaurants with his fiancé.

Pipp says, “Nonprofits should be using all the current sales and marketing technology to build their brand and maximize their revenue production.”

More about Pipp HERE

Email Pipp HERE

Interview Transcript

Hugh Ballou: Welcome to another episode of The Nonprofit Exchange. It’s Hugh Ballou and my colleague, Russell David Dennis. How are you today, Russell?

Russell Dennis: Greetings, everyone, and welcome. We are doing great in the Denver, Colorado area.

Hugh: Russell, you and I have been doing this for a while. Overall, The Nonprofit Exchange started four years ago. We have hundreds of episodes from really good people. Our guest today was here once before talking about a different topic. We are talking about a related topic. I thought it was so important that we should invite him back and dig a little deeper into his intellect. Us old guys, we have earned the right to talk about more than one thing because we have been around the block a few times. Let’s welcome back Pipp Patton. He is from the central Florida area, in Orlando. Pipp, welcome.  

Pipp Patton: Thank you. Appreciate it. I am in Tampa technically. That qualifies as central Florida.

Hugh: I know where Tampa is; I used to live in St. Pete.

Pipp: I know you did. A little on my background. I currently have a digital marketing agency, which I’ve had here in Tampa, co-founded with a partner about eight years ago. In a former life, I was a Yellow Pages rep. I sold them back when the Yellow Page directory was the search engine of choice. That has now changed. What was interesting about that was it gave me a lot of insight to a lot of types of businesses. Since then, my focus has been helping local businesses primarily market themselves, which is what I enjoy doing. I found the people who own local businesses are folks I enjoy working with and getting to know and helping succeed. It is rewarding for me and for them.

When we spoke a while back, we talked about Google grants, which are available to the nonprofit sector. Google Ads availability, which Google will provide. We will visit that again at some point.

Today, I think we are going to talk about the idea of websites are dead.

Hugh: We are. That was our teaser headline. It’s about more than just one thing though. Where did you get this expertise from?

Pipp: After being in Yellow Pages and working with local businesses for 14 years, I got out of that and really spent a couple of years taking care of my mom who needed some attention at that time. In the process, I was interested in technology. Google was starting to raise up and become well known. I remember having to wait early on to get a Gmail address because when they first started Gmail, you couldn’t just get one. You had to get on a waiting list because they were rolling them out slowly to make sure things would work. I remember waiting for that.

I began to learn more about websites and marketing online and how that could help local businesses. As I talked to local businesses that I knew, they were confused about having a website or not. How am I going to market myself? Yellow Pages doesn’t have attention anymore. TV and radio have become fragmented. It’s all about in today’s world where are people’s attention. Where is their attention focused? Can I get my message in front of them? Today, people’s attentions are on their phones. This little device has changed the world. As powerful as this device is right now, within the next 10 years, it will become vastly more powerful and important, especially from a marketing standpoint.

Hugh: You gave us a couple of topics. Are websites dead? But your overall thought was how do we create a sales funnel? We are talking about a nonprofit, Pipp. Why do we need a sales funnel for a nonprofit?

Pipp: One thing in particular that it can be used for is in the fundraising arena. I have seen a lot of nonprofits and regular businesses that will spend money on advertising, Google Ads and other things. They will send traffic to the homepage of the website. But it doesn’t actually focus a visitor’s attention any one place. People get distracted very easily today. When you land on the home page of somebody’s website, there are 42 things you can click on: drop-down menus and social media links. In a lot of cases, people have wasted their advertising dollars just sending a visitor to the homepage of their website. If they are trying to get them to make a donation, if they are running a charity golf event for someone to sign up, if they want them to join a newsletter, if they want to announce an upcoming event, maybe it’s a holiday coming up. Maybe they are starting to promote some Easter activities. When you are going to direct people for a particular purpose, where they will land needs to speak solely to that purpose. Mostly it doesn’t. That’s why I say the website is dead. A website is really just a brochure as opposed to what we’d like to call a landing page where you can direct somebody’s attention for the purpose of getting them there.

Hugh: You’re bringing them in from a noisy world, and you create more noise, so they don’t know where to go. I will give you an acronym that I learned from Tom Antheon, who teaches speakers how to build businesses: HITS is how idiots define success. You don’t care how idiots track success. It’s not how many hits you got; it’s how many conversions you have.

Websites. I will agree with you. I see a lot of dead websites. I have heard this from clients I’ve had, who had a large team and produce big web experiences for state parks, for government, for universities. There wasn’t just a pretty thing up there. Tom had also talked about web designers being propellerheads. We create something that is pretty, but no engagement factor. You hit on a big one in that websites are in fact dead because we don’t know how to engage people with this experience. Let me throw that back in your arena. Any comments?

Pipp: Absolutely. That is the case. That is what we are finding today. Let’s say a church has a large email list, and they want to do an email promotion for a particular purpose. They have to send that traffic to a particular place if they want to get the results they would like to have. A website itself is not going to make that happen. It needs a landing page. A landing page can be part of that website, or it will be a mini website, what I call a sales funnel. If you direct someone there, then you have the ability to extract the result you’re looking for. When they get there, they only have a couple options: follow through and do what you’re asking them to do, or click away and go somewhere else.

As an example, outside in the regular for-profit sector, there are a lot of companies, large and small, who spend huge amounts of companies on ads online, Google in particular. All of them spending significant dollars, five figures a month or more, are sending that traffic to specific landing pages. If an attorney is advertising for an auto accident, he wants to send that traffic to a specific page that talks about that topic and gives some of his testimonials that speaks to his credibility. They have options. One is to call him or to send him a message asking for his consultation.

In the e-commerce world, I have a funnel that I created for Christian Family Life recently. All it is designed to do is to get people who are interested in finding out more about their small group study for marriage ministry called Two Becoming One.

I recently did a funnel for a jeweler. Jewelers are people who don’t take advantage of digital media at all. One of the benefits of that is they can choose to buy something, and in the order process, you have the ability to get them to buy something extra.

The same can be applied to the nonprofit sector. If someone agrees to make a donation, then in the checkout process, there may be other things you can offer them that they would like to participate in that would generate more revenue for the nonprofit and doesn’t require any extra work of the person who is making the purchase or the donation. We have a mechanism called a one-click upsell. Let’s say you go to a page and say, “Yes, I want to buy this item.” You’re selling a T-shirt. You want to buy a T-shirt. You put in your credit card information and are ready to check out, and at the bottom of the page, it says, “By the way, would you also like a hat that matches? They are normally $25, but you can have one for $15.” All they have to do is check Yes, and boom, they don’t have to go back and put their credit card information in again. It’s a powerful thing. When people have already made the decision to spend some money or make a donation, in many cases, you can offer some other things that will entice them to spend more money or make further donations for a different purpose while they are in that mindset.

Hugh: It requires knowing what you want. I think building out what Russ and I do is help people build out their strategy so they know all the things they want to accomplish. Someone like you can help them pull it off. We have this big gap between desire and implementation. Part of implementation is on your side. I am going to ask you another question and let the smart guy ask some.

We’re talking today about websites being dead, but they don’t have to be dead. They are an active, organic engagement tool. We’re talking right now about the funding piece. We just say, “Oh, make a donation.” We don’t create the language or make it a simple process. As they are checking out, you can upsell them. The other option is, “Here are some committees. Here’s a place you can volunteer.” They are investing in the outcomes of the organization, but they can also invest with their time. Maybe there is a way to share this stuff with other people while they have the site open.

I’m sure you have lots of tricks up your sleeve, but I heard you say at the beginning of this that when people get there, we drive traffic. That’s one factor. But what do people do when they get there? What is the most important thing you can say to people thinking about updating or beginning to build a web experience for a nonprofit or church or public service organization? What’s the advice you’d give them as they are starting up?

Pipp: As they are starting up, I believe every business needs a website. Websites are dead for a certain purpose. Everyone should have one as a general information point. As far as a start-up nonprofit, yes, I believe they should have a website that when someone lands there, they can quickly understand what that nonprofit is about. What is their purpose? What is their mission? What are they trying to accomplish in the world?

Russell: There is a lot to that. With the website being dead, one of the things that confuses people and leads to them being stuck is the availability of so many tools. You spoke to the landing page, which is for a special purpose. What are some of the other tools in addition to the website that are effective for nonprofits? Why do these work well together?

Pipp: One thing right now is we are probably at a point where it’s easier to build a brand online than it ever has been before. With that, that involves making a commitment to social media. I had a meeting with a young lady yesterday who used to be a Tony Robbins coach, and she is launching a coaching business of her own. She needs to be doing a Facebook Live every day. Take that video, whatever that is. It could be 5-20 minutes. Download that video, and put it up on YouTube. Then go through that video, and find nuggets of wisdom. 60-second clips. Post those on Instagram. We will take that video and separate the video and audio. Put the audio on a podcast. If we go a step further, she can take the audio transcribed and create a blog post. Parts of the video can also be posted on LinkedIn. Now you have the ability to put out media on a daily basis to a whole bunch of channels. Why is that important?

That’s important because, like I held up the phone before, it’s a battle, if you will, to get people’s attention. You don’t know where everybody’s attention is. Mine might be on Facebook. Yours might be on LinkedIn. Hugh might be on Instagram. Some people spend a lot of time on YouTube. Some folks like to read. Reading is still a thing that people do, I think, especially if they are over 40.

Russell: Hugh happens to be surrounded by Yellow Page guys. I sold Yellow Page ads during college. Once again, he’s out on the fringes, but that’s ok.

Hugh: My worst nightmare.

Russell: There are so many things here that we can use. What we are all about here is strategy. With all of these tools available, and you just mentioned one way that someone can take one single piece of content and spread it across six platforms. Do you find confusion out there about how to use these platforms? What is the best way to approach a social media strategy? You want to have a brand. Don’t different people show up in these multiple places?

Pipp: They do. You want to know who your audience is. Ideally, as you guys know, if you are building a strategy, you want to create an avatar. Who is that person you’re speaking to? You want to do the best you can with that. As far as social media strategy goes, I work mostly in the for-profit sector, I tell people to put out your best content. Put out your best stuff. Most people don’t want to do it themselves. They will find someone to do it for them. The more you give your best information, the more you establish yourself as the expert, and you become branded and create content that people want to share.

What’s interesting about Facebook is when you start doing this, you may not have anybody watching your Facebook Live. But the more you do it, the first time you do it, you get one person. The next time, it’s two or three. As that number begins to grow slowly, Facebook realizes there are people staying on listening to this for 5-10 minutes. We will start showing it to more people. Facebook knows more about all of us than we would like anyway. They will share it with who they determine to be like-minded people with the folks who are watching. It takes time to do it, but it doesn’t take dollars to do that.

One great thing about doing this social media strategy is if you are doing video content, you will find over time that more posts will get more engagement than others. If you find a post with a higher level of engagement, you can download that video and use it in a paid advertising strategy because you know the content has good engagement already, so it will do better if you put money behind it than if you were just starting to spend money on a campaign not really knowing if you had engaging ads or not. It can help you in that regard as well.

Russell: It makes sense. That’s part of being effective: staying on track and tracking everything you do. We encourage people to do that. What would you say is the best approach to building a brand, given that there are so many options?

Pipp: Just what I said. I would set up a Facebook page around their brand. I would be getting on there doing regular content, if not daily, 3-4 times a week. Doesn’t have to just be them themselves. It could be an interview like we are doing here. This is a podcast that is live-streamed to Facebook, but it could just be someone doing a 1:1 interview on Facebook with someone within their niche that they felt like their audience would be interested in what that person has to say. I would just start there.

The other means of taking that content and putting it other places is it may initially be challenging for some folks. With a little bit of instruction, it’s not that tough to figure out. I know a couple people who would disagree with me, but overall, if you’re dedicated to building your brand and you know where you’re going, you’ll figure it out.

Hugh: It’s ok for people to disagree with you because you’re not responsible for their low functioning.

Just to play in to what you’re saying, to show it’s practical, we are streaming live on Facebook. We are recording on my computer, which I will edit and put the music and brand on it. I will relaunch the video on YouTube. We put it on LinkedIn and Facebook. In the next couple of days, it will have several hundred views. In a few days, it will launch on the audio podcast. We will take what you say, every word you say, and transcribe it. That goes into the podcast and the web page. By the way, the livestream of the Facebook is streaming on your page on the website. We have publicized that on our 250,000 contacts on social media. They can just watch you on our website. We are repurposing live right now. Before I go to sleep tonight, it will be on YouTube and all over. People will be ringing your phone wondering who is this guy?

We provide value to people every week when we do these things. What I do find, Pipp, is when I show up in a group of leaders, people know who I am because I’m out there on the live stream. I’m out there on social media. People don’t always agree with what I say, but I subscribe to, “Comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable.” We stir things up a little bit.

This is so helpful. If people don’t know how to do all these things, we will put into the window your website address and your email address. Pipp@SI-5.com

Pipp: Search Intelligence. That’s my company.

Hugh: I know Russ is anxious to dig deeper on some questions. I’m going to throw it back to Russell.

Russell: This is all fascinating. People look at social media. There are so many platforms and choices out there. What would you say to a nonprofit leader who says, “We don’t need all of that. We only need one. We’ll just do Facebook.” What would you say to a nonprofit leader who says that?

Pipp: I would say that’s a good start, but it depends on- My attitude is this. I’ll hold up the phone to him/her as well and say, “This is what holds most people’s attention today.” Everybody whose attention is here is not on Facebook. Some of them are watching YouTube videos. Some are on their Twitter feed. Some are on LinkedIn. Some listen to podcasts when they are driving around doing things. A few people go to websites and read stuff still. I would say, “Yes, you want to be on Facebook.” It’s important. and you want video on Facebook because video holds people’s attention. But you are handcuffing yourself if you are just sticking with one platform. If you will put the work to doing that one platform, it isn’t a whole lot more work to get that content on other platforms. Ideally, someone on their own could get this done in an hour a day once you get used to doing it and get a system going. Before that, it will take longer. It will be burdensome until you fine-tune it for yourself.

Russell: Multiple platforms. For nonprofits, and I know you work with different businesses, are there some that are better than others, if they have limited bandwidth as far as the amount of time or people they have to sit and work this system and set it up? Is there an order of priority that works better for nonprofits?

Pipp: Facebook and Instagram are huge, of course. I think for a lot of people, LinkedIn hasn’t really been utilized to the extent that it could be. But if you are going to do the Facebook content, it’s just not a lot of extra work to take some of that content, clips or still shots, and get them on Instagram. You can take that same video and post it on LinkedIn. On LInkedIn, you will put that on your personal profile, not the business profile. People don’t look at the business side.

Russell: Some platforms are more visual like a Pinterest or Instagram. Those are visual. How important is it to play to all of the senses that people have in making your message stick and reach more people?

Pipp: You want to mix it up. Part of the advice I give people is if you have your avatar, what is the age bracket? If you are dealing with 40 and under, you need to focus your attention more on Instagram. If it’s 35 and up, then maybe Facebook. There is a saying out there now that the millennials aren’t on Facebook. I don’t believe that’s true. I think they’re there as well, even though Instagram may have their primary focus. Pinterest, I don’t do much with it. I think for certain niches, specifically e-commerce, it can be good. I think it’s good for jewelers and the wedding industry. It’s visually oriented, even more than Instagram is visually oriented. You have to play with different ones and see which posts you do get the most engagement.

The other thing you can do on Instagram in particular is search hashtags. If you know what your hashtags are, search those. Find out what the top performing posts are on that platform. Use those to help yourself model the posts you do. I have a young man I know who is proficient on Instagram. He is 21 years old. Normally, he is on there in T-shirts and jeans and flip-flops. He was looking at a competitor and saw he had done one dressed up in a suit and tie. The post got huge engagement. He went out and got a suit and tie and did a post. It did better than anything else he’d been doing. You can learn from what other people do. You can’t copy, but you can model that success to gain more success for yourself. Does that help answer that a little bit?

Russell: It does. The hashtag gives people things to search through. The thing I’m seeing more and more of is video. Talk about the importance of video. I know for nonprofits, it’s about telling a story in an engaging way. Why is it really important for them to use video? Are there some things that would be more effective where video is concerned?

Pipp: Video is important because it will hold people’s attention longer. The one most important thing is the sound needs to be really good. People, even if the visual part is good, if the sound is poor, people won’t stick around and listen.

Another trick with Facebook: Most people who watch videos on Facebook on their mobile device do so with the sound off. 70%. It’s a good idea to make the effort to close caption the video so you can get your message across even when they don’t have the sound on. That’s an extra step, more work, but certainly can be well worth it.

Videos need to be real. If they are too slickly produced, you will lose people. I know a story that I’m fond of telling is I have a friend who has an online business. She lives in the Northeast. She is a mom with four kids. She is busy. She had been trying to get this video post out for a week. It was always something going on. The dog was sick, or one of the kids was sick. Finally she had to get it done. She didn’t have time to do her hair or put on her makeup. She had her sick son sitting on her lap. She turned on her webcam and microphone. That post got more engagement than anything she’d ever done because it was real. People could relate to that.

In any arena, you need to have content that people can relate to. A video is too slick, and everybody thinks they can’t do it or it’s too well produced. You can have some of that, but it’s nice to have the stuff that is real and you pull out your iPhone or mobile phone and shoot some video. That can be really engaging and very effective.

Russell: It looks like that red carpet footage from Hugh from Sunday night will have to stay in the vault.

All of this material that we put together and all of the ways we bring this information together is to tell a story that is relatable to people. Back to the whole topic of a sales funnel. We want people to become more and more engaged so you attract more at the top and bring them in. Talk about some of the things that nonprofits would use a funnel for. Some of it is to engage donors. What are other uses for a sales funnel? What messaging would go into that?

Pipp: The messaging could be what they are trying to promote at the time, whether it’s raising funds or attracting volunteers or promoting an event. The best way to do a sales funnel is put one together that is a single one focused on that one topic. It’s all about the strategy. What are you trying to accomplish?

The other thing that is important on these funnels is the social proof. Social proof is everything in today’s social media world. When you’re pulling out your video and are having an event, you want to get some comments from other people that are not necessarily a part of the organization, but they are fans of the organization or the people who come to the church or support the charity or volunteer for the charity or are recipients of the charity’s good works. All of that, as much as you can, needs to be captured. Pictures, video. That needs to be a part of that sales funnel so when you direct traffic there, the people can see this evidence that says, “I’m here for a particular reason.” You see an overwhelming amount of social proof saying, “These guys do some good work. Here’s the evidence.” It makes it easy for people to say yes and take the next step.

Russell: That’s powerful. Have your friends recommend you. That is the best thing you can get out there. People who are talking about why they support that nonprofit. More people that your audience can relate to.

Pipp: Absolutely. That is so important. As I mentioned, I am doing some work for CFL for a marriage ministry. Our whole focus of attention right now is gathering social proof for people who have been through this marriage ministry and the positive results they received. We are gathering that before making our next big marketing push. It’s weird to say marketing in the nonprofit context, but it is marketing.

Russell: If nobody knows what good work you’re doing, they can’t support you.

Pipp: That’s right.

Hugh: We have an aversion to some principles. We have an aversion in nonprofits and churches (which are nonprofits) that we don’t want to sell. What is evangelism? We don’t want to market. What is evangelism? People don’t give. Have we told them what’s going on? Have we told them about the impact of our work? Interviewing people, and getting third party testimonials, is excellent.

However, we have to give them a format to talk in. They will talk about fluff unless we say talk about what you needed, talk about the impact, and talk about the results you saw. Say a little bit about how when we do get people to talk about us and we post this-

We started out talking about our websites, but we have talked about a web presence. Your website is your credibility piece. This is what we do; this is what we’re about. Your website is not just on the one platform. A church is not only behind the four walls. There are other pieces of marketing. Russell is spot-on. How do you connect with people?

Pipp: I think one of the best ways to make sure that you’re not getting fluff is you have to ask questions, specific questions. If you’re gathering a video interview or if you are walking around an event with your mobile phone, ask people questions. Get their answers. Then you’re not just going to get, “This is great. I’m happy to be here.” “What have you seen today that made the biggest impact on you?” Or, “Have you thought about a friend who you really want to know about this?” Or, if you are talking to someone who has been the recipient of the good works of that organization, ask them, “How has this impacted your life? How has this helped you at home? How has this helped you with your children?” You get some specifics in there, and not just fluff, as you said.

Hugh: It’s not that we’re programming them. We’re helping them focus on what’s important. I’m going to let Russ have another go at you. Russ, what else do you have on your heart that you want to ask him to talk about?

Russell: One thing we talk about at the Colorado Speakers Academy is messaging, trying to find out what you want people to know, feel, and do as a result of the message. What would be the advice that you would give to nonprofit leaders specifically to hone in on accomplishing those three things? Are there certain best practices that serve a nonprofit more so than it would serve a commercial entity?

Pipp: I think they are largely the same. Anybody who is leading a nonprofit is already in most cases someone who is comfortable speaking. They are having to get up in front of people and speak. It’s getting comfortable turning that webcam on and talking to a Facebook audience when you are not seeing a person right in front of you. Interviews can be helpful because then at least you have another person to speak to. Focusing on the message that you want. The other thing that is effective is telling stories. It’s important to get your message told in a story format because people love listening to stories. But they don’t like being lectured to. If you can get your message across in a compelling story, you will be more effective.

Russell: That was one takeaway from my mastermind. We have a group here that meets. Somebody will share a challenge. We had one of our members looking at updating some of our material on social media. She had written something very carefully, and it was slick and polished. When the question was posed, why is she doing this, her authentic self came out. She talked for about 45 seconds. One of the members said, “Why didn’t you write that down?” It was smooth. She was just seamless. She was into it. It came out very well.

Do you find that people feel like they have to polish stuff up because maybe they are uncomfortable being on camera? Even if they are the only person in that room, it’s like speaker anxiety where they are afraid to talk into a camera. How do you address that?

Pipp: What I tell people is the same thing I tell myself because I am not comfortable doing it either. We have to do it. Whether it takes you 10 times or 20 times or 30 times, once you do it enough, you will find your voice, and you will get a good understanding of how you need to present that information and the kinds of stores you’re good at telling. With the Speakers Bureau, if they have never done speaking but always wanted to, they will be bad when they start. Practice gets you better. I used to play competitive golf. If you have ever played any golf, you know that the first time you pick up a club, the first thing you do is totally wrong. You learn those fundamentals, and then you practice. The nice thing about social media is that people are intimidated by and large. If they see somebody looking not so polished or stumbling over their words a bit, they’re okay with that. That’s real. Real can be compelling. You can draw an audience by being an authentic person. I could do that.

Russell: I don’t think they will mistake Hugh and me for Johnny Carson and Ed McMahon. But I think we hold our own here. Get a message out to folks that resonates with them. That’s what we hope to do. Finding other people that are doing some of this type of stuff might be helpful. Do you recommend helping people get a support system? Talk to somebody who has done this before. How about some of the volunteers in the organization? Do you find that when you work with nonprofits, some of them have volunteers on board who are savvy with this stuff who can interface with someone like you to bring the image to life for a nonprofit?

Pipp: In this arena, I can’t say I have worked with enough of them to have that experience. I am working real solidly more with one right now. They do have some volunteers who are helpful in this arena. It still largely falls to the head of the organization. Most nonprofits don’t have big staffs. There is not a lot of people. Even if there are volunteers, they don’t have enough time. It’s learning how to put it together into a system that you can create for yourself. Once you get it down, you can do a Facebook Live video and parse it out to the different platforms inside an hour, if you have done it before and know what you’re doing. It just takes some time to learn those steps, like everything.

Hugh: Speaking of an hour, we can multiply ourselves if we can learn how to lead a whole team. Pipp has opened up a topic that is really important. We think we will just get some kid to put up a nice looking website. We haven’t developed an integrative program. Pipp, part of what we don’t do is define who we are and identify our brand value, our brand image, our brand promise. We need to identify who we are. What we have at SynerVision is a whole integrative process. You are doing things differently with web presence and social media presence and letting people integrate with us and engage people. It’s critical in the nonprofit space.

*Sponsor message from SynerVision Leadership’s forum*

What tip or thought or challenge do you want to leave people with, Pipp?

Pipp: I would challenge everyone to get out there on social media and do a Facebook Live. Start there. Get comfortable with that. Then you can figure out a way to parse that material out. Take the video and put it on YouTube and Instagram and LinkedIn, etc. Hugh, if it’s okay, can I make an offer to your audience?

Hugh: Yes.

Pipp: I will offer to create a sales funnel for three nonprofits for no charge. The first three that contact me as a result of this interview. Contact me via email at Pipp@SI-5.com. I will put together a funnel for them for no charge.

Hugh: I don’t think Russ and I can take the first two. That wouldn’t be fair. That’s generous. Thank you so much for being here. Russ will close us out today.

Russell: Thank you very much, Pipp. It’s been very enlightening. As always, an hour flies by here.