Breaking Down Barriers and Bias for Women in Leadership

Despite making up 50.8% of the U.S. population and 58.2% of the civil labor force, women are staggeringly absent from upper-level positions in the American workforce. While there is a long history of women’s role in the American workforce — between wars, social movements and political climates — little progress has been made in the way of gender equality in the workplace. Today, Linda Fisk, Chairwoman of LeadHERship Global, can help you and your teams better understand what the glass ceiling is, who it affects, why it exists and how you can help break down such barriers and build a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

Linda Fisk is a multi-award-winning CEO, TEDx speaker, 5x international best-selling author, U.S. Senator for the WBAF, keynote speaker, and university professor dedicated to amplifying and extending the success of other high-caliber business leaders. She is the Chairwoman of LeadHERship Global, a community of unstoppable women enhancing their leadership blueprint and embracing their power to be the best version of themselves- in work and life. In LeadHERship Global, Linda supports and guides ambitious, creative women to move in the direction of their purpose, their mission and their dreams with powerful connections, critical support, practical tools and valuable resources to show up, speak up and step up in their careers and personal lives.

https://leadhershipglobal.com 

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The Interview Transcript

Hugh Ballou:
Welcome to the Nonprofit Exchange. This is Hugh Ballou, founder and president of SynerVision Leadership Foundation, where we transform leaders, transforming organizations, transforming lives. And it’s a journey we’re on because we’re philanthropists. It’s the love of humankind and how we relate to people in the world and how we make the world a better place. Our guest today is really a thought leader in the space of women’s leadership, a friend. So David Dunworth is my co-chair. He’s the chair of the Center Vision Leadership Board and our foundation where we help leaders get the job done. And Linda does it. Linda Fisk, would you please tell people a little bit about yourself and the topic that you’re going to talk about today?

Linda Fisk:
Absolutely. Hugh, David, what a pleasure to be with both of you today. Thank you so much. You know, my road, my journey that has led me to the creation of what I would argue is the most impactful community of extraordinary women in leadership in the world. has been purposeful and intentional, and I think brought me to what is my God-given design. This is really what I was intended to do in the world, is ensure that women in leadership all over the world have a community of other leaders that they can be transparent with, be vulnerable with. We have an impactful community of extraordinary women around the globe, and we are focused on unleashing their full potential. These are high-performing, growth-oriented leaders, and in this confidential, supportive, and really pretty private network, they have the opportunity to create personal and professional breakthroughs. And we help guide women to achieving greater leverage and greater freedom in their careers and in their businesses and in their lives. And so what I have found is that this kind of community and really my purpose and my passion is really about helping inspirational leaders create lifelong friendships, be surrounded by people that are deeply invested in their success, and accelerate whatever their definition of success is. And it is a privilege, it is absolutely an honor to be doing this work.

Hugh Ballou:
So Linda, you’re in the space where our topic today is breaking down barriers and bias for women in leadership. So you’ve been on this journey for how long?

Linda Fisk:
Well, I am really old, so I would say that I finally broke into the C-suite maybe 20 years ago. And I started off as a CMO, Chief Marketing Officer, and then moved into a CEO position. And then I began my own entrepreneurial journey with LeadHership Global, creating this global community of extraordinary women that are in leadership. And that happened about six years ago. We’re almost on our seventh year. So it’s been a really extraordinary opportunity to impact lives all over the world.

Hugh Ballou:
When I type it in, the spell checker wants to correct it. It’s LEADHER, with H-E-R capitalized, LEADHERSHIP Global. And give us an idea of the type of organization. And does it span the country? How big is it?

Linda Fisk:
Yeah, so LeadHershipGlobal is a global community of world-class women, thought leaders, experts that really brought together to collaborate and to facilitate excellent outcomes for each other, to deeply invest in each other’s success. So we have about 10,000 women all over the world that are part of LeadHershipGlobal, and that includes Africa, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, North America, South America. And really it’s our comprehensive methodology that’s designed to unleash the full potential of these women that I think is really the differentiator. We help members accelerate their success by defining their vision, growing their leadership, expanding their influence, and then leaving a lasting legacy, which sounds very much aligned with what you do, Hugh, in your organization focused on accelerating the success of nonprofit leaders.

Hugh Ballou:
Wow. Wow. That’s great. You’ve been in this journey for a number of years. So 20 years ago, you were in corporate America. Did I hear you correctly?

Linda Fisk:
I began my C-suite journey about 20 years ago, but I was in corporate America for at least the last, I don’t know, probably not quite 50. Yeah.

Hugh Ballou:
Oh, no. Oh, no. You’re only 29. It can’t be.

Linda Fisk:
Exactly. Wouldn’t that be great?

Hugh Ballou:
So have you seen, we hear and sometimes men just don’t see it and we don’t understand it, but have you seen a change in what’s called the glass ceiling in that period of time?

Linda Fisk:
Yeah. And, you know, maybe this is a good place to define that idea of glass ceiling. And I think of glass ceiling as the upper level of the workforce. It’s the opportunities to really transcend into the C-suite that is often proven to be pretty impenetrable to the vast majority of women and minorities. So the glass ceiling is really kind of a metaphor for the very evident, but sometimes intangible impediments that prevent women and often minorities from achieving that kind of elevated professional success And get this, despite making up a little bit over half of the U.S. population and about 60 percent of the labor force, women are staggeringly absent from the upper level positions of at least the American workforce. And while there’s a long history of women’s role in the American workforce, like between wars and social movements and political climates, little progress has actually been made in the way of gender equality in the workplace. So, you know, despite the fact we make up half of the U.S. population and nearly 60 percent of the labor force, less than five percent of women are represented in the C-suite for specific.

David Dunworth:
Wow. Wow. Cute. That’s an amazing statistic, isn’t it? It is. Wow.

Linda Fisk:
Women of color actually make up less than 5% of C-suite positions at almost not quite 4%.

David Dunworth:
Wow, those are staggering statistics. You know, and you had mentioned that it’s women and people who are minorities, but there’s got to be others that are affected by that glass ceiling. I know that. And I don’t have any statistics, perhaps, that you do, but we know of high energy, high impact people who are among the 26 percent of the population that have some form of disability, whether it’s visible or invisible. It affects them doesn’t it.

Linda Fisk:
Absolutely. And I just gave a talk for scripts networks about invisible disabilities, and People that suffer from invisible disabilities are often at the same sort of disadvantage that women and minorities often face in being hired and being promoted. In fact, get this, women are 25 to about 50% more likely to be hired if the application is blind. meaning if you can’t see the name, you can’t see the gender, they are almost 50% more likely to be hired. And both male and female managers are twice as likely to hire men over women. Now, think about that statistic. Both men and women have a bias towards men. But if you add on top of that, someone who may be disabled, they may be blind, they may be deaf, they may be neurodiverse, then those statistics become even more staggeringly disappointing.

David Dunworth:
Wow.

Hugh Ballou:
David, that was a good question. We’re not aware of our bias, are we, Linda?

Linda Fisk:
No. That’s the insidious part of this conundrum, is the fact that there are intentional and unintentional biases that we are all affected by. I feel like one of the best things that we can do as leaders, as employees, as employers, is to be aware of our unintentional biases. In fact, get this, at companies where 90% of the leadership is men, half of the men at that company think that women are being very well represented. So if you’re at a company where 90% of the leadership are male and half of those men think, oh no, women are really well represented in my company, They have a lot of senior leadership roles. The very first place to become sensitive is to actually begin to notice, to actually begin to count the number of women in senior leadership roles as compared to men. Listen, men are 30% more likely to achieve managerial roles than women. So just being aware of what your workforce looks like what your company is comprised of, where those leadership roles are, and who holds those leadership roles, that’s step one. Just simply be aware.

David Dunworth:
Be aware. Yeah, that’s a good point because oftentimes as busy as executives are, well, as busy as everybody is, You know, we go about our hurry-up lives and don’t sit down and think about stuff like that. It’s one of those gotta get it done, gotta get it done worlds that we live in, rather than taking the time to analyze, like you’re talking about, who’s on the hierarchy and how can we make it better. Hugh, what do you think about that?

Hugh Ballou:
Yeah, I’m also wondering why it still exists because you’ve been at this for a while. It’s been an issue for a while. And I remember, oh, at least 30 years working in the church, we’ve been sensitive to gender in all of its context. And even the gender, we want to make God a he all the time. and put you out in a box. So, we’re talking about your experience with corporate America, but it’s not very different in the sector with the religious organizations or the community charities, is it?

Linda Fisk:
No, I think you’re absolutely right on there. Now, we’ve talked about the fact that women of color make up only 4% of C-suite positions, but just 10% of all leadership positions in the workplace are represented by women. And I feel like that indicates, just that alone indicates that we have a lot of work to do. But it’s clear that I think most people would identify and outline this as a problem. But now I think it’s really important to look at some ways that we can all work together to break down these barriers. And there are some ways that I would recommend that any employer, any leader, any employee really begin to combat this idea of a glass ceiling. First, understand it, understand what it means. And then have open conversation about it, especially if you’re noticing the same statistics in your company that I just mentioned about women having equal access to opportunities to escalate their careers. If you are noticing that there seems to be an imbalance, that there seems to be gender inequality in the leadership positions at your company, at your organization, then talk about that. right? Talk about what can we do to help lift women up, to help women and minorities all across the organization have equal access to these opportunities. And then as I noted, I have found that conducting blind screenings, blind hiring processes can help really equal the playing field, right? So, If someone is applying for a job and you don’t know their gender, you don’t know their nationality, you don’t know any of their visible or invisible disabilities, then you are really being able to evaluate those candidates based on talent, based on experience, based on expertise. The other thing that I think is really important is to implement regular bias and stereotype training because, Q, as you said, we’re often not aware of our own implicit biases. Those biases, they’re very unintentional. We may not even recognize that we have a particular bias. As I said, women and men both deem men as being more likely stewards of leadership positions, right? So if even women have a bias towards men in leadership, then I think it’s really important that we note that and that we implement regular bias and stereotype training.

Hugh Ballou:
I think, David, sometimes we don’t know that we have a bias. We’re biased about not having a bias. So, you know, women do things differently. You know, men have had this stronghold on leadership, I don’t know, forever. And, you know, it’s time to change that up because women bring a whole different skill set. And, you know, we get in this rut of doing things like we’ve always done them. And I think it’s time for a refresh. So, has it gotten better in the time you’ve been in leadership? Is there some hope that it’s moving in the right direction?

Linda Fisk:
There are pockets where we’re starting to see some movement, but I would think nationally and globally, the statistics have remained pretty consistent over the past 10 years. And the other thing I would note is that this isn’t just reserved for people in a corporate environment or an organizational environment, whether that’s a for-profit or a nonprofit. This also affects women that are beginning their own entrepreneurial journey. In fact, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, women entrepreneurs run, get this, 42% of all American small businesses. That’s nearly 13 million people and they employ 9.4 million people. And together, they generate about two trillion with a T, two trillion dollars in revenue. But what we know is that women do not have equal access to capital. In fact, it’s it’s remarkable to me, but less than three percent of women. I’m sorry, less than three percent of venture capital funds are given to women owned and women operated businesses. And if you look at women of color, that number drops to less than 1%. Less than 1% of venture capital dollars are ever granted to women-owned and women-operated businesses if you’re a woman of color. So the biases that we may be suffering from in a corporate environment are actually just as visible outside of corporate, even in entrepreneurial ventures where getting access to capital is often the differentiator between those businesses that can grow and scale quickly and those that cannot.

Hugh Ballou:
Wow. Well, I want to explore some more of the things that you’ve given us some ideas what to do about it. But David, you had a question you were formulating before we came on the air. Is this a good time to ask that?

David Dunworth:
Yeah, I think it very well might be. You know, and I’m going to frame this with a little personal story. I have spent an entire career working with and for women, as well as men in some cases. But I always found that women work harder than men. It’s been my experience. They can handle more miscellaneous things to do at one time, multitasking, I think they call that. I call that confusion. and you know and and then they balance the rest of their personal life if they’re married or have children they have all of that to do too so I’ve always been very very fond of women and as a writer I always try to look for strong female leaders and influencers And one of the very favorite of mine is Lucille Ball. And everybody thinks, oh, she’s a comedian. Well, she’s got an incredible story behind her. In fact, Desilu Productions, which was I Love Lucy and other things that she did. The first Mission Impossible was a Desilu Production, by the way. Well, it wasn’t Desi that ran it. It was Loop. Lucille Ball was the CEO and chairman of Desilu Productions. She called the shots of everything that went on. She was the first actor who was pregnant in a television show ever, leading the field in multiple arenas. And so based on that information, and I wanted to tell you that story because I always look for powerful women to showcase in the things that I do. But what can be done? Here’s my question. What can be done on a proactive basis that you haven’t mentioned yet? What are those things in that small entrepreneurial world? How do we get venture capitalists to turn their gaze towards women enterprises. How do we do that? How do we get more people in the C-suite that are minorities, disadvantaged, or just plain old female?

Linda Fisk:
How do we do it? I love that David what a good question. I’m going to respond in two ways one really having to do with those people that are in a corporate environment, and that could be a for profit and nonprofit that they work in a larger organization, and then those people that are really business owners business founders and entrepreneurs. So if you work in a corporate environment, I would say set diversity hiring and promotional goals. So set goals for the organization to say we are going to promote X percent of women, minorities, disadvantaged populations, into positions of leadership over the next two years, we are going to intentionally and purposefully look for talent that we can room that we can grow that we can help teach and train to be able to promote them into positions of leadership, that’s number one. Number two, establish anti discrimination and sexual harassment policies for your organization and make sure that people are clear about behavior that will not be tolerated about decision making that will not be tolerated, be sure there is a clear effective anti discrimination and sexual harassment policy that is available to everyone that is seen as being, you know, clear and actionable. And of course, everyone should know anti discrimination laws. everyone should know what their rights are. They should know when something has crossed the line into a position of discrimination or harassment, right? And so I think that you’ve got to stand up for your rights. Listen, women still receive pay raises 5% less often than men. If you notice that and you’re tracking that and you are managing that, then you are equipped to be able to take action against that, right? So you have to know what your policies, procedures, and guidelines are for your particular organization. And then I would also say that for women entrepreneurs, there are a lot of opportunities to secure venture capital and other forms of funding that level the playing field. So there are all kinds of grants at a federal and at a state level that are uniquely earmarked for women in leadership and that are uniquely earmarked for women’s Women owned and operated businesses so specifically look for those opportunities to receive funding from alternative sources, and be sure that you are networking with others that have received the kind of venture capital funding that you’re looking for, and ask them. What did you do right? What did you learn through your journey? Who should I be contacting? How can I best network? So surrounding yourself with mentors, especially women mentors that can coach and teach and train you on how to be successful, attracting and securing venture capital funding can be incredibly helpful.

David Dunworth:
Wow, that’s great advice. Those are some key items worth digging into for sure. Thank you for that.

Hugh Ballou:
Well, we’ve come close to the end of this really helpful interview. So your website for people to find you is called leadershipglobal.com. I’m showing it for people that are watching, but if they’re on the podcast, what will they see when they go there?

Linda Fisk:
So when you come to leadhershipglobal.com, what you’re going to find is a little bit information about our programs, our benefits, the different levels of membership. You are going to have a very, very in-depth understanding of what kind of benefits and privileges and exclusive opportunities are available to you in leadership level so you can make an informed decision about what best suits you, how to accelerate your success, how to ensure that you’re able to reach your goals and objectives based on your definition of success. We make sure that our website is very transparent. It is very open because we want everyone to feel empowered to make a decision that is going to help you level up your success and develop those kind of powerful, intentional relationships with other leaders around the globe that will really impact your success.

Hugh Ballou:
So we’re becoming more aware, even if we do have a bias, you’d have to be blind and stupid and just stay home all the time, not to know that the situation exists. So we’re aware of it mostly, but being aware of it is not a solution. So what do people do to move forward and do something about it?

Linda Fisk:
Yeah. You know, again, I feel like even in a corporate structure or an entrepreneurial journey, it’s about establishing relationships. Relationships are a powerful part of who we are. They can help us feel like we belong, like we have something to contribute to the world. They can strengthen us. They can give us reasons to affect change and more importantly, to be changed. But if there’s something in your working environment that you don’t feel like is equitable, that is fair, that leads to equal opportunity for all people, then the first thing you have to do is stand up and say something. Oftentimes, organizations have an opportunity for you to say, this doesn’t seem right to me, that we only have one woman in leadership out of an organization of over 1,000. or this doesn’t seem right to me that I have been passed over for promotion five times, and yet I get outstanding reviews every single year. So if something doesn’t feel right to you, stand up, say something, go to your HR group, and find the kind of relationships within your organization that can bolster you, that can help ensure that you have access to the kinds of leadership opportunities that you deserve.

Hugh Ballou:
That is a good place to leave this. Linda Fisk, you’ve been an inspiration today. Thank you so much for being our guest today on the Nonprofit Exchange.

Linda Fisk:
Thank you so much, Hugh and David. What a pleasure. Thank you.