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Traits of The Gracious Leader: The Power Five®️
Interview with Gracious Coach Doris Young Boyer
Doris Young Boyer is a sought-after keynote speaker, leadership advisor, and podcast host. She has insight, expertise, and experience about the behaviors that create a powerful presence, that create and sustain relationships, and produce bottom-line results. Doris has more than 25 years of domestic and international business experience.
With more than 25 years of domestic and international corporate and business experience, Doris is the go-to expert on global protocol, business etiquette, and leadership behaviors. She has firsthand knowledge of the communication and leadership issues executives face on a regular basis as well as the diplomacy, conflict resolution skill, and protocol savvy needed to address these issues. She gives her clients winning formulas to be confident and successful in business and social situations.
Doris equips her clients to avoid unintentional and preventable blunders, such as taboo gestures. As a result of her coaching and professional development seminars, her clients reduce their learning curve, increase their influence and profitability, resolve conflict with grace and skill, maintain strong global relationships, create an effective workplace culture, motivate a team and achieve the goals that are important to them and positively impact the success of others and make better decisions. They implement the behaviors of a leader.
Leaders will sidestep costly mistakes that can; derail a business meeting or an interview, demotivate a team or negatively impact the workplace culture. In a situation where a derailment has occurred, Doris will problem-solve with you to get back on track.
She is a thought leader on Gracious Powerful Leadership which she describes as the result of intentionally choosing and using relationship-focused behaviors as the default in leading others.
She brings experience and expertise working with individuals and organizations domestically and internationally. During her tenure as a human resources professional for a major corporation, Doris traveled extensively in Europe representing the corporation to its many divisions. She planned and executed conferences, briefings, and retreats in Europe aimed at increasing the effectiveness of executives.
Doris has a BA and MA in behavioral and social sciences and post-graduate training in finance and strategy development. She is an experienced International Protocol and Corporate Etiquette Consultant, trained and certified by the founder of the Protocol School of Washington. Known as a problem solver who values relationships and results, Doris is trained in mediation, meeting facilitation, and innovative problem-solving. She facilitates workshops, meetings, leadership retreats, and strategy sessions. She helps clients perform things faster, easier, and more effectively. She makes your path smoother.
Read the Interview Transcript
Hugh Ballou: Hello, everyone. This is Hugh Ballou. Welcome to this episode of The Nonprofit Exchange. Every week, we have an interesting person to talk with about leadership that comes in many forms and sizes. Some people talk about leadership through planning, branding, or other means. We have a unique person with a unique perspective today. I think you’ll find her topic very important, especially in today’s divided world. Here is where we come together and share ideas.
My guest today is a new friend. I met her recently and asked her to come on the show, and she didn’t hesitate to say yes. Doris Young Boyer is my guest today. Doris, people want to know who you are, so tell us a little bit about who you are, your background, and what led you to do what you do today?
Doris Young Boyer: Hugh, I am so glad you invited me to be on your show today. Who am I? I am a parent, first of all, of a wonderful young man. That makes me very happy. I am someone who likes working with people, who likes teaching them things I have learned as I have gone on my particular life journey. I am a speaker, writer, a new podcast host of the podcast The Gracious Leader. I am a mime; I was trained to be a mime, so I put on my costume and makeup. I do that in my church. I am many things. But most of all, I am concerned about making sure that we lead ourselves and others in a way that makes the world a better place.
Hugh: We were talking before about the fulfillment I get in coaching and consulting with people. I’m just so happy to see people fulfill their own dreams because they have grabbed some concepts that hadn’t occurred to them before. People have all these labels about leadership, but I have never heard anybody say “gracious leader.” Define what that means.
Doris: A gracious leader in my definition is someone who uses relationship-focused behaviors as their default in leading themselves and others. The question that they always ask is, “What will this do to the relationship? Will it enhance the relationship, or will it damage the relationship? If it damages it, maybe I need to lead from another aspect rather than this aspect.” It takes a variety of reasons. Certainly empathy and communication, but it’s a heart-centered approach, where your mindset is, as I said, how is the other person going to feel based on what it is that I’m doing? It is looking at the skills you need to develop to keep that intentional focus going as well as executing the skills that you learn and the values that you learn on a regular basis. For me, that is what sums up gracious leadership.
Hugh: Wow. That’s great. My mind is exploding with what you’re talking about with concepts of what that could look like. I don’t know how many years, but we have seen such a harsh corporate environment where it’s about the bottom line dollar, the stockholder. We see some corporations now embracing what we call the triple bottom line: people, planet, and then profit. There are people-minded organizations. What I know as a musical conductor is whatever they see is what I’m going to get. The leader really influences the culture. How does being gracious set the tone for the rest of the culture?
Doris: I’ll give you a quick story, and this is really my signature story. I mention it on my podcast, but it’s such a part of me that I’d like to mention it again.
I attended a dinner when I was just out of graduate school in my first job, and I decided to sit myself at the executive table even though I was just coming into the company. I sat next to the CEO. We had a very nice conversation. He went to reach for his wine. There was a lipstick stain on it. I had been drinking his wine, even though I know what the place setting was supposed to be like. I was mortified. I couldn’t look at him because I wasn’t sure what to do. I didn’t know what he was thinking, what other people at the table were thinking. I basically wanted to die. That’s how I felt.
He didn’t say a word. He had to feel my discomfort. He said to other people around the table, “Who would like a beer?” Everyone said yes. So he ordered beer in bottles. It came on a silver tray. As he was bringing it, other people who were at the dinner wanted to know what was going on. He clinked bottles with everybody. We drank the beer. It excused him from having to order another glass of wine that might embarrass me. He changed the tenure and culture of the table in an instant. We went from being very corporate and quiet conversations to being the rowdiest table at the whole dinner. People were looking at us. We were drinking beer and laughing.
I felt cared for. I felt included. I felt that I belonged. I felt kind of exonerated. That is what gracious leadership is about. He is a very powerful man. I brought myself to his table. He could have said, “You’re drinking my wine. I’m going to have to get another glass.” None of that. He took care of me. I think that what he was saying was that is the culture of this company. We take care of people who are with us. It made a profound difference in the way that I started to lead myself and the way I led the team I was in charge of. The most important thing was certainly getting a result, but making sure that as that result was accomplished, other people weren’t left bloodied.
Hugh: When I’m having a bad day, I’m going to call you up so you can tell me a story. You know how to tell a story. There are so many parts of that to unpack. The culture is in fact the reflection of the leader. He set the tone for everybody. Sometimes it’s not even something that you can touch or feel that’s tangible. Sometimes people don’t even know what it is, but it’s there.
Grace comes out of my faith. I’m a Christian. But it’s also in other faiths as a way of being. It’s not something that a whole lot of people use, is it?
Doris: I think people don’t pinpoint it as that in terms of leadership. Graciousness and leadership sometimes seem to be on the opposite sides of the spectrum. I think there are more people who are gracious leaders than have been identified as such. People will say, “There’s something about him/her. She makes me feel a certain way.” Grace is not necessarily the title they will hang around it, but that’s what it is. It is respecting somebody else’s humanity just because they’re human, not because they did something fabulous or maybe did something wrong.
Understanding that this is a gracious world. All we have to do is wake up in the morning. We don’t have to set the sun in the sky. We don’t have to figure out how to breathe. There are a lot of things that impact it. but we don’t have to get up every morning and set the world in place. We just have to get up and go about what it is we feel we want to do. There is graciousness all around us. It’s tapping into that graciousness and using it to lead yourself and other people.
Hugh: The foundation for leadership is relationship, isn’t it?
Doris: Absolutely. Being gracious is about relationship-focused behaviors. What is the impact that I’m going to have on this relationship by doing XYZ? It’s not about whether or not people deserve it. That is the truth piece of graciousness for me. I invited myself to his table. I don’t know if it was reserved for a certain rank, a certain level of executive. All I knew was that I wanted to sit next to him. I wasn’t in the company long enough to know whether that was a rule. I just sat there because that’s what I wanted. Someone could have said, “You put yourself in that situation.” His response had nothing to do with whether I was right or wrong. It had to do with all of my intensity at that point. He probably felt that and said, “What’s the best thing I can do here?” Plus it was a new product for the company. There was a chance to showcase the new product. It was a win-win for everyone. But he made that intention to make sure that I was taken care of and supported.
Hugh: We’ve learned leadership wrong, and we’ve inherited systems that are broken. It’s time for a reset in how we approach this culture, this relationship, these work ethics, and these systems that we have, that we gather, whether it’s a business or nonprofit or religious organization. There is another dimension I think we’re missing.
Part of it is bred in our culture. When you meet someone at a networking event or party, typically people ask, “What do you do?” instead of “Who are you?” I have purposefully not asked people what they do because typically in a situation like you’re talking about, the leader looks at people, “That one’s HR. That one’s finance. That is the marketing person.” They look at them as position, but he looked at you as person. That is a reframing.
We tend to think about functionality. Sometimes leaders strive so hard that they drive over relationships to get things done. There is a lot of bad examples, which we don’t need to talk about. We’re talking about good examples. That is a great story. Stories inspire people more than other ways of communication. What do you think?
Doris: I believe stories are instructive for yourself. This is an amazing story to unpack. I get something different from this story every time I tell it or write about it. I see different aspects of hits particular story. There is a YouTube video, talking about the danger of a single story. We are more than one story. You’re more than the finance person or the marketing person. Graciousness allows you, I believe, to look at the whole person because the relationship is the key connector between you and that particular person.
Hugh: Love it. Who do you think of when you think of a gracious leader?
Doris: For me, there are many. Certainly the CEO of my company. Nelson Mandela is a strong, gracious leader for me. When you look at the fact that he was on the side of the resistance that was fighting against apartheid. He was arrested for it and treated brutally. But he was able to leave prison with a bigger goal or picture in mind. He wanted to heal the country. That purpose of developing the relationships to make that happen became his life’s work. If you study Nelson Mandela, boy, this power five I talk about is so amplified in the kinds of things that he did: bringing people together and the strategies he used to do that. He is a strong role model of graciousness and leadership.
Hugh: For me, I got to be in the street in front of Walgreen’s in the ‘60s with Martin Luther King. He talked to my student body. He was powerful, but it wasn’t about him. It was about all of humankind. He had a very clear vision that he stuck with. I saw him mistreated a lot, and he never retaliated. He was very present.
Watching Mandela do some speeches. He could have been bitter, but he came out of prison with a big heart. He acted in ways that were gracious and modeled how we could do better as humans.
Doris: I’m sure there was some bitterness. He was treated very poorly for a long period of time. He missed his children growing up. But he decided to override that. That is the intention I’m talking about. Your mindset and your intention is, “I am going to accomplish this goal that is bigger than myself, but it requires that I’m focused on the relationships.”
Hugh: A couple of things come to mind. What sets a gracious leader apart from other leaders?
Doris: Certainly the intention that I talk about. They’re willing to learn the skills that undergird relationships. I put together what I call the Power Five. Some of it incorporates etiquette. Some of it incorporates networking. But these are the five areas that I find that people will make mistakes and be most awkward in as they are trying to develop these relationships.
One is certainly knowing the difference between business etiquette and social etiquette. A second is knowing how to introduce yourself as well as introduce others. The third one is about networking and connecting with other people. The fourth is about your professional appearance. The fifth is about managing conflict with race and skill.
I’ll start with the fifth one because that is the most important one. Life is made up of conflict. People think it’s conflict when it’s a big congregation, and I am angry and you’re angry. We almost want to go to war. Conflict is very small. If not handled with grace and power and skill, that is when it becomes very big.
In terms of leading other people, very often you have to read their body language. They may not say anything, but perhaps something you have said or done has not been pleasing to them or makes them feel undervalued. If you don’t say anything at that particular time, going to that person later and saying, “Hugh and I just had a conversation. I just want to make sure we are on the same page here. Is there something that we might need to talk about?” Giving you the opening to talk about what might be bothering either one of us. Taking that feedback without trying to defend it, but just listening and seeing where the common ground is.
There are so many tips to handle that. I recommend people Google the top ten words that fuel conflict and remove them from your vocabulary. When you are talking about something that has happened, and I walk in and say, “You said this,” your back is up. What are other ways to have that conversation? Maybe saying, “Hugh, I heard this from you, and that is not how I see it.” That starts a different kind of conversation. Learning those kinds of things.
Nelson Mandela was a master at this, listening to what other people had to say and reflecting back to them what it is that he heard. He learned the language of those people who oppressed him so he could have that exchange. He knew when people’s birthdays were and would reach out to them. He knew things about people’s lives, so that was a basis for him to build the relationship with that particular person and try to get as much agreement as possible. The idea of managing conflict with grace and skill is one of the key power skills that we teach people.
Hugh: That is a big one. What I’ve unpacked from listening to you is when you have that narrative with a person, you refrained from using the word “you.” You said “we,” which embraces the learning I’ve had. When there is conflict, everybody contributes. Leaders sometimes want to blame others when it is maybe something they set up themselves through something they did. Blaming others would then make it worse.
Doris: It does. The thing to remember in terms of common ground is we hear things differently. The person might not have said something in the way I heard it. Finding that common ground is to say, “What is it that you’re asking me?” That requires skill. Life is moving fast. If you’re not intentional about stopping for a minute to ask that question, you’ll miss that opportunity. You have to be intentional about it.
Hugh: You’re talking around it, so let’s hit it. One of the top leadership skills is listening. You’ve given us really good examples of why and how it’s important. When I do training for corporate leaders and coaches, I ask them to wait three seconds after somebody shares something before they respond. That is a huge amount of time when somebody wants to talk. Sometimes I’m talking to people, and I know they’re not listening. They’re thinking about their answer already. It’s good to be able to formulate the answer, but it also validates that the person has been heard. We got two ears and one mouth. We listen with our ears, but we also listen with our eyes. The words are 7% of a message, according to research. There are lots of inflections and physical signs that maybe there is something else going on here. Listening is a top skill, wouldn’t you say?
Doris: Yes, I agree. I also think body language is a top skill in terms of what is your body communicating about how you’re feeling to the other person? Sometimes noticing what someone else is saying, “You folded your arms when I said that. Was that because what I said penetrated you in a way that you felt you needed to protect yourself? I’m seeing some resistance there. Do you want to talk about it? Or maybe I am reading something into it.” Opening up a conversation based on someone else’s body language.
I grew up with parents who were very strict about manners and behaviors. While I don’t think that graciousness is only based in one part of the country, there is something to the training that my dad received growing up in the South about how you behave and how you do things. There was no eye-rolling, glaring, or looking as if I can’t wait for this conversation to be over. None of that. We grew up learning that your body language says a lot about what you’re thinking and feeling. Is it respectful to me as your parent? The same thing is true when we are leading ourselves and somebody else. What our body language says to another person as we’re talking is just as important as what our words say.
Hugh: That is so key. Doris, there is this thing called a power differential. You were very comfortable sitting next to the boss and relating to them. Not everybody is comfortable doing that. They feel like they don’t have permission. Sometimes when the boss asks a question, people hear it as, “What do they really want to know? I need to give them the answer they want,” rather than feeling liberated to respond. As the leader, people might not feel comfortable telling you what you actually want to hear. Is there some way to be gracious and invite people to break through that and tell us what we want to hear?
Doris: That’s a great question. I want to take a second to think about it. Off the top of my head, I would say how you look at them when you’re asking that question and what your body language it’s saying, whether or not it’s inviting, if you’re looking at them with a smile saying, “Hugh, I really want to hear from you. What are your thoughts about this? I can see you’ve got something going on there.” Something that puts them at ease when you’re asking the question so it doesn’t put them on the spot.
Words such as, “I’m open to suggestions. That’s how I make better decisions. Mary, what kind of suggestion might you have for us?” or asking, “Does anybody have a suggestion?” rather than putting one individual on the spot.
Hugh: Leaders oftentimes are isolated from the very facts they need because of their own behaviors. Sometimes we are afraid to get input because people are going to expect I am going to use that idea, rather than putting all of the ideas in a hopper and they might be part of the final decision. Rather than managing expectations, they back off and don’t do it at all. I think part of being gracious is inviting people into the conversation. Did I hear you right?
Doris: What you just said, “Did I hear you right?” is a wonderful phrase in terms of managing conflict and inviting people. It says there is a possibility that something coming from me didn’t connect with what it is that you said.
Hugh: Yes. I don’t know about you, considering my age and mental condition here. But people might say something that triggers a thought. Then you miss the next thing they say. Checking for understanding is really important. We don’t do that in human relationships. When you send a document to the printer, the printer says, “I got it,” or “I’m out of ink.” There is an electronic handshake. We don’t do that in our interpersonal communications. We don’t say, “Oh, I got it.” There is no validation that the message is received in the manner we intend. I used to have a poster that said, “What you thought you heard is not what I thought I said.”
Doris: It’s very true. More than we know, people did not get the message that we intended to send. I’m a storyteller. This is one of my favorite stories about connecting. When my son was 10 or 11, we were going out as a family, and he had to get dressed. He was completely dressed. It was so fast. I said, “Did you take a shower?” He said, “Yes, I took a shower.” Something didn’t feel right. I heard him get up a couple minutes ago. I didn’t know how he could shower that fast. I said, “Are you sure?” He said, “Yes, I took a shower.” Something in my mother’s brain asked him, “Today?” He said, “No, I didn’t take a shower today.” I said, “You know that’s not honest.” He said, “You didn’t ask me if I took a shower today. You asked me if I took a shower. And I took a shower.” “When did you take the shower?” “The day before yesterday.”
Hugh: Teenager, right?
Doris: He wasn’t quite a teenager, but he already had the jargon down. You didn’t ask me if I took a shower today.
Hugh: But we do have those miscues in the workplace. Maybe we didn’t ask the right question. You had expected a reasonable response that it was a shower today. But there was a loophole there. Let’s do these power five.
Doris: These are the areas that are easy to make a mistake in and create some kind of awkwardness for yourself. I believe that if people can master these five things, they will increase their effectiveness as a leader.
I mentioned one already, managing conflict with race and skill. The second one is having a professional appearance. Nelson Mandela said he always dressed up wherever he was going. Always be dressed to impress. Carry it with a smile. Always have a smile. Look people in the eye. That is whether you are dining with someone, traveling for business.
Under this professional appearance comes this issue of dining. Knowing how to manage all that silverware and what is going on at the table. I’m an etiquette expert. I wax a little bit about this, but I just love the beauty of the table and how it’s set and the silverware. It can be daunting if you are at a very formal dinner. We talk about dining. You work your way in from the outside when you are using silverware. Not putting anything on the table that is going to soil it. That is a sacred space where you will share a meal and a conversation with other people. A cell phone is not the cleanest thing in the world, so don’t put it on the table. If you must look at it, keep it on your lap or in your pocketbook or in your pocket.
The third thing is networking and connecting. How do you network and then connect? It’s not just by giving a card to someone, but how you give the card to that person. Having it face them. How you receive a card from them. Make sure you follow up, too. That is the hard part, especially in this era of social media. Sometimes you look at your LinkedIn page, and you have five or six invitations. How do you stay on top of all of that?
The fourth one is introducing yourself and other people. Knowing how to introduce people, especially in business. In business, introductions are based on rank. In social, they are based on age and gender.
The higher-ranking person receives the lesser-ranking person. People who have achieved a certain rank understand this. They want that because they worked hard to get it. That’s why they’re the CEO, so they want to be introduced that way. You’re introducing the lesser person to the senior person. You mention the senior person’s name first. “Mr. Biden, I’d like for you to meet Hugh Ballou.” You know he’s the president, so I would tell him that you are a podcaster. The conversation could start from that standpoint.
When it comes to social introductions, it is based on age and gender. The female receives the male. You would say, “Mrs. Doris Young Boyer, I’d like you to meet Scott Jones.” It’s also based on age. “Mrs. Senior Person, I’d like you to meet my daughter.” Those introductions, that subtlety in terms of rank and gender, is very important. That is the power five. There is a lot more in terms of introductions. I just gave you a little overview.
There is also knowing the difference between business etiquette and social etiquette. That is the power five.
Hugh: You mentioned the South. Did you grow up in the South?
Doris: I did not. I went to school in the South, but I grew up in New Jersey.
Hugh: I grew up in the South. We think there is a graciousness, especially with church women in the South. There is a particular culture. There is a nuance. I grew up in Georgia. There is the cultural nuance. I betcha it’s anywhere where you show up as a grace-filled person.
Doris: That’s how I feel when I say this. People take a little umbrage when I say that graciousness is not limited to region of the country, gender, wealth and exposure. There is no gene that some people received, and others did not. It is learned behavior. It is intentional behavior. You look for opportunities to implement that behavior.
Hugh: We do have our own language in the South. It goes with fried chicken, collard greens, black-eyed peas, and cornbread. Comfort food and comfort behaviors. Where we really grow is getting out of our comfort zone and asking how I can be better. When I talk to a leader about how to continue to work on their skills, and they say, “I got that leadership stuff down pat,” I think that’s dangerous. What do you think?
Doris: I think that people don’t necessarily feel that they have it down pat. The feeling is that it’s not as essential as the power portion of it. How I got it done is not as important as the fact that I got it done. When I was in corporate America, and we did succession planning, it was so apparent to me that how you got it done was as important as the fact that you got it done.
Maybe Joe Jones was expecting to be promoted to senior vice president. His ticket has been punched. He had gone into all of the other areas. He excelled in those particular areas. When we would sit down to talk about his future, his boss would say, “He is not quite ready.” I would say, “Okay. What is his unreadiness?” “Well, sometimes he is just not great with people. If there are situations that arise when we are in a hurry, he is not as gentle with people as we’d like him to be.” When you probe that, you find out there are skills that he is lacking that could have been handled well before we got to talking about this particular level. He doesn’t want to give Joe Jones that job because he is not quite ready. Joe Jones is going to leave the company and take all that intel with him someplace else. Those are things that could have been handled when all that time he was achieving results, perhaps not how a gracious leader might or how you might want your CEO to behave, but he was getting those results. How you get the results is key. I think that people may not recognize that as something to really contend with.
Hugh: I got two more questions. This has been wonderful so far. I do these interviews all the time, and I have learned some key things from you today. Thank you. I find that leaders misperceive some of the top skills like delegation as a weakness. I would see that maybe some people might think of being gracious as a weakness rather than the powerful presence that it is, as a strength.
Doris: I think that’s very true. I have asked people this before, but when some people think of gracious, they think of gender. They think of female as being gracious. They think maybe of tea and Southern hospitality. They don’t see it as being a power skill. Perhaps they might call it something else. But it is relationship-focused. There is a gentleness about it. An understanding of humanity about it that can only be called from my standpoint graciousness.
Hugh: That is so helpful. The gracious leader enters the room. What is the result?
Doris: Well, the person’s presence is not something that enters first. The door doesn’t open, and they barge in. There is something about that person that you want to get to know them. Maybe it’s the way they look you in the eye. Maybe it’s their overall appearance. You know that someone has entered the room that has your best interest at heart, that has things you need to learn from them, and they are going to create change, even if they are only in there for two minutes. That is the power to me of a gracious person.
Hugh: Wow. That’s so key. Doris Young Boyer, you’re teaching us things we need to know. We need to have these tools in our leadership toolbox. We need them today more than ever before. We are too fragmented; we need to care about each other more. This is a good step-by-step of what we can think about and implement. What thought or challenge would you like to leave people with after this really wonderful interview?
Doris: My challenge would be to look at the graciousness around you. Don’t take it for granted when someone in a store says, “Thank you for coming.” It sounds like a throwaway line. Stop and look the person in the eye and say, “You’re welcome. Glad to be here.” Build on the graciousness around us, and get that ball rolling. It’s contagious. Teach it to your children. Be gracious at home to your spouse, to your other family members.
Write thank-you notes. I love receiving thank-you notes. This is something my mother did, where she would give you a little note on your dresser, “Thanks so much for folding the clothes today. I appreciate it.” That was something she told me to do. I didn’t wake up and want to fold the clothes. But she thanked me for carrying that out. The first time I got it was wonderful. “You’re such a special daughter to me.” Putting that kind of note in your husband’s lunch or children’s lunch.
Sending quotes to people that uplift their spirit is a gracious thing you can do, even for people you don’t know. I got something today from one of the women who was in the National Speakers Association. I am part of their list. She wrote about how something happened for her that day, and she is in such a great mood, so she sent energy out to everybody. I received that. That is not something she necessarily had to do.
Learn about the people who work for you. What are their passions? What makes them tick? What are their children doing that is interesting that you can have a conversation with them about? Show an interest in people and things around you.
I walk in the mornings around a little park that is near me. Yesterday morning, a gentleman struck up a conversation with me. He asked me how I was. I said I was well and asked him how he was. He said, “You know, I am well because I didn’t really have to wake up this morning. And I did. I am so happy about that. I am happy to see you. You have a good day.” And he walked away. Oh boy! What a great thing. There is so many little ways to enhance someone else’s day and value their humanity. That is the bottom line of graciousness.
Hugh: Doris Young Boyer, you not only talk about it, but you also live it. I can feel it. When I met you, there were 100 people on a Zoom, but you stood out. I knew I wanted to get to know this woman, and now I know why. You have helped us all today. Thank you for being our guest today.
Doris: Thank you so much for having me. I thoroughly enjoyed it.