Marketing Laws of the Golden Triangle:
How to Connect with Your Message
with David Dunworth

David DunworthDavid Dunworth is a certified Magnetic Marketing Advisor serving Nonprofits and Clinicians through attraction marketing and automation to grow capacity and sustainability to fulfill their mission.
Nonprofits he’s worked with in the past are Michigan Cancer Foundation, Leukemia Society of America, Michigan Bach Festival, Detroit International Wine Auction benefiting the Institute of Music and Dance, and many others.

Donors get inundated with appeals daily, yet only a few receive attention. Focusing your attention on existing marketing messages is more effective and less expensive than constantly chasing new ones.

More about David at


Read the Interview

Hugh Ballou: Welcome. We’re here again for The Nonprofit Exchange with Hugh and Russell. Russell, it’s another great day in the mountains of Colorado, I guess.

Russell Dennis: Every day is a great day out here. It’s beautiful here. It’s probably beautiful down there where David is hanging out. It’s always warm down there.

David Dunworth: Oh, it’s warm. There is a little bit of rain going on today, but it’s warm.

Hugh: It’s liquid sunshine.

David: That’s right; we love it.

Hugh: David Dunworth and I have known each other for a number of years, as has Russ. He has several areas of specialty. We are talking about one of his areas today of marketing. David, our custom is to let our guest give them a profile of themselves because if we do it, we might make things up. Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Tell people a little bit about you, especially what has led you to do what we’re talking about today.

David: Hi, I’m David Dunworth. My company’s name is Marketing Partners. We partner with strategic alliances that help small businesses and nonprofits grow their businesses and get found. What I’m really excited about is a recent strategic alliance I’ve created with one of the largest digital marketing firms in the country. We have been helping dentists, doctors, and attorneys 10x their business, which we do through magnetic marketing, what we like to call the one system.

How I got started in marketing goes back a long way. I was in the military, and I ran officers’ clubs. We had to do promotional stuff all the time. We wrote a newsletter and did flyers, all kinds of things to promote business. That carried through to post-military, where I stayed in the private club business. At the height of my career, I worked with the largest club in club corps arsenal of 250 clubs or more. On top of that, it was attached to a humongous banquet and conference facility that was open to the public, owned by Ford Motor Company. With my 4+ years of working with them and the marketing department, I became proficient in the field of marketing. Back then, it was traditional marketing. Pre-internet, pre-digital. A lot of the concepts still hold true, but the technology has changed, and the consumer has changed. It’s no more push the message out there; it’s attract the prospects to you. That’s the biggest change in marketing. A lot of the concepts are still the same. That’s how I got to today.

Hugh: People are still people. Relationships are still relationships. All those things you mentioned, we added cell phone, internet, email, texting. We didn’t take anything away.

David: No, we didn’t.

Hugh: The core relationship piece, even though our culture has shifted, is the same. You described this as magnetic marketing, did I hear?

David: Through the laws of attraction it’s been called many things. It’s called attraction marketing, magnetic. Companies like HubSpot call it inbound marketing. Digital marketers call it the customer value optimization. ClickFunnels calls it the one funnel. Basically, it’s the one system. A lot of different names for the same thing that a lot of top-tier marketing agencies and platforms utilize. It’s the name that was coined by Dan Kennedy back 25 years ago.

Hugh: A lot of people do well because of Dan Kennedy.

David: Very much so. He is the godfather of direct mail, direct response marketing. Whether it’s direct mail or writing your blog, the concepts are still the same. You have to get involved with and understand deeply the laws of the golden triangle. I can explain that to you in a minute if you like.

Hugh: I’m going to toss it to Russell. He has some good questions. I bet you this golden triangle is one of them. What do you say, Russ?

Russell: It’s like a new concept to me. I haven’t heard of the golden triangle. What I have come to understand, and you’re dealing with this every day, is that the principles aren’t changing; it’s just that we have these different mediums to go out and reach out to people. Do you find that the number of choices is something that confuses people and makes it harder for them to get their message out?  

David: Yes. The vast majority of small businesses and a lot of nonprofits go about the process completely backwards. What the first thing with all of this confusion and all of these digital options, there is still a formula, but the formula by small businesses usually starts with the third piece and not the first. Should I run a Facebook campaign? Everyone is doing Facebook. Should I go on Instagram? Maybe that will work. Should I run Google Ads? Let’s do that. They can’t figure out why this stuff doesn’t work.

Getting back to the laws of the golden triangle, it doesn’t start with media. It starts with knowing who your ideal audience is. It’s called your market. It’s knowing so much about them that you know what they eat for breakfast. That’s an exaggeration, but the more information you can gather about them, the more you can figure out how your solution will solve their challenges, their problems, what they are looking for, their desires, their needs. If you look at a triangle in all equal distances, the left side would be your market.

The next piece of the triangle would be your message. What is the message that you need to convey to the people you know you can help? How can you structure it in such a way that they want to learn more? They can feel, Oh, he’s talking to me. He knows I have the same problem. I can get more information from him. Or I can work with this person to solve my challenge.

Once you have those two pieces, the third piece is media. You have to know where your market gathers information. Where do they hang out? I’ll give you an example. A personal injury lawyer may run a lot of Facebook ads, but do you think this lawyer is sitting at Facebook all day finding stuff? He doesn’t have time for that. He is talking to other lawyers in the community, the local bar association. He is reading law journals. Running Facebook ads for a lawyer makes no sense because he/she is not there. You have to identify where you- The media is just the distribution channel to get your message to the right people. That is the market to message match.

Once you have those three components, they are equal in value, but there is a structure involved. That is the marketing laws of the golden triangle. Always start with market, then message, then media.

You know there is more than 1,200 types of media. How can that be? Social media, magazine, newspaper. Literally, someone bothered to count it, and there are 1,248 different ways to do things. Obviously, we don’t use all of these things, and you’d be crazy to even try. You can use 3-6 media at the same time in the hopes of attracting your ideal message. That is one of the triangles we talk about. That is where most small businesses fall to the side. They try it once, twice, so they figure it doesn’t work. They go back to the old ways then. Same thing with nonprofits.

Russell: I have seen some situations where people promise a customer the sky. We will have hundreds of people beating your door down in ten minutes. This is a long-term proposition. It takes some nurturing. Talk about that and how some of these mismatched expectations can cause somebody to give up on something before it actually begins to work for them.

David: Sure. Marketers today, whether you are a nonprofit or working for a doctor, attorney, or shoe store, marketing today is based on attraction. It takes time. You’re not going to be successful overnight. Even though all of these shiny objects that come up every day, a new toy or secret weapon has finally been revealed that will cure your woes. It doesn’t happen that way. Half of the stuff that comes up in the market has probably been proven that it doesn’t work, but they are still trying to sell it. That is what the small businessperson has to be cognizant of. There is no quick fix. It takes time and consistent effort and following the laws of the triangle.

One of the keys to understanding is that marketing is an investment. It’s not like you’re going to put 100 dollars on a horse and three minutes from now you will win or lose. You have to invest in the marketing and hope that your return on investment is as much as you invested or more to get new leads. Wouldn’t it be grand to get $100 for every dollar you invested in marketing? It happens sometimes. But you can get 10-20-30x your investment if you do what is the right thing to do. People have tried email. They send 1-2 and think it doesn’t work. They make 1-2 phone calls and left voicemails. I guess that doesn’t work. They send direct mail one time. That doesn’t work. It doesn’t work because people are busy. People need 7-8 touches – that is the favorable estimation that people do, although Tony Robbins recently said it’s up to 14 touches now before people will pay attention to you. It takes effort in a lot of directions to make people pay attention to you, keep them interested, and draw them in. There are no quick fixes.

Hugh: Russell has a good paradigm that he shares when we are talking to potential board members or donors to find out what they are interested in. I am amazed. We have a large presence on LinkedIn. I’m amazed that “professionals” will just hit you up to buy something. Why should I care about buying from you? You let something slide through that I am going to pick up.

You mentioned that you help businesses develop streams of revenue. Russell and I encourage nonprofit leaders to think and realize and act as if they are in business. It’s a business with more rules, but thinking business-wise. We start with the word “nonprofit,” with scarcity thinking. It’s amazing how many nonprofits think they can’t spend money on marketing. Talk about the investment in marketing. We have to do it more than once. People say they tried it and it didn’t work. I tried working out one day last year, and that didn’t work either.

David: Speaking of trying and not getting the results, so far, I’m a little overweight, and I have been overweight my whole life. I have lost more than 1,000 pounds. One pound this year, two pounds next year. You have to have consistent effort in order for any transformation to occur. It has to be consistent.

I’m going to differ with you slightly on the comment that I was talking about businesses and nonprofits think because they are a nonprofit, they are not investing in marketing. It would be a bad thing. A nonprofit is a business. Any business has to sustain itself, or you go out of business. What does a business do? It attracts customers. They become loyal customers. They stay loyal. They buy more. Their frequency improves. Their average spend improves. A nonprofit doesn’t necessarily have to sell products although some of them have a service organization where they have a profit end. By and large, let’s talk about the nonprofit mentality that says we need more donors. Let’s do what we need to do to get more donors to meet our budget and go from there.

It’s been my experience that marketing is in three parts. Marketing is a before, a during, and an after. Before, you’re identifying who your prospect is. You’re lead generating. You’re trying to get people to pay attention to you. The during is when you finally get the nurturing long enough so they are ready to buy or make a commitment. The after is the internal marketing aspect of it, where you keep the customer happy and engaged and recognizing your value proposition. That develops a loyal customer. Eventually, they are so pleased with you that they become loyal raving fans. They become your advocates and are a part of your work force talking to people about you.

It’s the same thing with nonprofits. You have to identify a donor. You have to make the conversion occur. But I think that’s where a lot of nonprofits stop. They are so keen on getting new donors that they have no barricade at the back door. The donor spends their time with the organization, and then decides, I don’t know if they appreciate me, so a lot of them go. That’s why there is this chasing your tail concept with nonprofits. I believe they need more help on the internal marketing aspect of their business. I use that word business because that’s where they are.

Hugh: Actually, that was my point. You articulated it far better than I did. What do you think, Russ?

Russell: Marketing encompasses so many things. It’s a broad word. People get confused about it because there are so many aspects to it. People don’t think in terms of a marketing message. Talk about how marketing fits with a nonprofit organization as opposed to or in contrast to a small business.  

David: Marketing encompasses many things, as you said. It’s a broad brush. There is a lot to talk about. Prospect identification, conversion, internal marketing, those are all terms that small business may understand. But in the nonprofit world, there is still that concept. There is still that process, that system that has to be inlaid. How are we going to attract our donor? What are the strategies we are going to use to attract more donors? It could be direct mail, mass appeal, an email campaign, national public radio. They have four or five donor campaigns every year. That’s how they sustain themselves. That’s all part of the marketing strategy that a nonprofit organization should do. Many of them do. They find different ways as they can.

The next step is crafting the right message. What are you going to tell these donors? How are you going to write it? Are you going to be like the American Cancer Society or the American Heart Association or the Institute of Music and Dance? Will you copy them? Or will you get more creative? Are you going to touch their heart with emotion? Emotion is a big thing in magnetic marketing. You have to touch their heart to make things happen.

The third part, after you have conversion, is keeping them. That is no different in the nonprofit world. It’s just a lot of these terms and concepts may be foreign to them. But they need it. They have to have it, or they can’t sustain themselves. The support of government is constantly shrinking. The expansion of nonprofits is constantly growing. The pieces of the pie are getting narrower and narrower and putting more pressure on the nonprofit. Coming up with the right ways to sustain themselves and grow capacity is through generating donors and keeping donors.

Russell: We are seeing new forms of business that are socially responsible and hybrid organizations that are going out to make a difference. We have seen some changes in the tax law that are impacting that. As far as marketing goes, it needs to be dissected so that people can look at those most important points. There are people who are dumping resources into marketing with maybe pieces of information. Is there a right way and a wrong way for nonprofits or businesses to market? What are some of the most prevalent mistakes you’re seeing people make?

David: There is a right and a wrong way. I have described the right way pretty well. The wrong way is taking that one-time shotgun approach to the marketplace and spreading the message across to as many fields as possible, what we like to call spray and prey. Rather than taking a rifle approach to your target and saying we are going to target this particular person and get our message across.

That has been the case with nonprofits. They have a database of information, whether it’s addresses, emails, or phone numbers that may or may not have even been sanitized of late. It’s the same list they have been using. What does sanitization mean in a marketing campaign? You have to make sure those addresses are valid. You have to make sure you won’t be wasting time and money on postage that won’t go anywhere. Nonprofits are eligible for some discounts, but postage is not cheap. Maximizing your revenue spend by minimizing its cost is a critical issue.

I want to bring up a point that will hopefully explain how nonprofits and businesses can do a little bit better job at their prospecting, conversion, and so forth. It’s a product that we use, this partner and I, called the High Value Client. When you look at the prospect pyramid, another triangle shape, the very top is the 1%. The 1% are very rich. Money is absolutely no object to them. We know that because we hear about them all the time.

The next layer of that is 4%. This 4% is very affluent. They have money, but they have things they concern themselves with. They are still actively working. They have bills to pay. But they have large amounts of disposable income.

The next layer is 15%. Those are people who are upper middle class. They have some disposable income, but they have bills to pay. They have a nice house with a big mortgage. They have credit card debt. But they still have a little money. That is a total of 20%.

The other 80% are living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck. There is no disposable income. They are paying bills and getting things done. Survive, and thrive a little if they can.

Hugh, I don’t know about you, but things like that, you’ll see sometimes where small businesses operate on a scarcity mentality, much like nonprofits do. They have to appeal to the broadest mass they can. That is a price decision marketplace. People buy for the lowest price. Quality may not be the primary issue. It has to be price-driven.

Our whole philosophy is to go for the upper 20%. Actually, the top 5% is the sweet spot because they make decisions fast. They know what they want. They know what they like. They know what they’ll do. We take that sanitized list and do some data mining, and find out who those people are in your list. We take that time to understand who that top 5% in the marketplace are, the ones we should target first. We set up specific campaigns for them, be it donor or high-ticket items for sale, and do a sophisticated campaign focused purely on that market segment.

Then, once we have been successful with that, we will expand to the next 15%. But the bottom 80% yields the least amount of productivity and would be the greatest part of the expense. That is where small businesses go. Down to the bottom so they can compete on price.

When I say compete on price, it’s like the gas station wars if you remember those from years back. One gas station would lower his a nickel. The guy across the street will lower his a dime. The only way to win in buying and selling on price is that it’s a downward spiral, and the one that wins is the one that goes broke first. Absolutely the wrong concept. That is what you see businesses doing all the time.

Hugh: That is not a logical approach to marketing. That was a penny, David. It was when gas was 21-24 cents a gallon. Lowering a penny was a significant difference.

Russell: It’s been around a couple days.

David: Where I grew up, it was a very competitive marketplace in Chicago. Even back in the ‘70s and ‘80s, they would have price wars, especially after the oil embargo in the mid-‘70s. Fighting for market share. Not a good way to do business. Nonprofits need to understand that as well.

Hugh: Many people think they have to compete at the lowest price. I think your point is well taken. Those are the least effective people to have engaged with you.

I am coming on as the chair of the board of the Lynchburg Symphony Orchestra. We do sell live events. We sell a product, which is our concert. We need to think about marketing seriously. What is the old saying? Half of what you spend on marketing is wasted; you don’t know which half though. What you’re saying is it’s probably the larger because we don’t target it well. We haven’t got a good message maybe. We haven’t thought about what people are interested in. We are redoing our strategy and thinking about audiences. A variety of programs. What do we need to do specifically to relate to that audience? I found out recently one of the biggest fears of going to classical concerts is people don’t know how to dress. I never thought of that. The symphony is a 501(c)3. Churches want people to join and attend. We need to go back to the drawing board.

You’ve been with me when I’ve done a solution map, our version of the strategic plan. We target who we want to attract and our strategic position, why people should be interested in us anyway. I would guess that is the prerequisite for a marketing person to be able to develop an effective marketing campaign. Is that right?

David: What you have to remember is you are not marketing to you. You are marketing to them, the way they think, the way they act, what they are concerned about. You hear people say, “I‘d never do this.” Great, because you’re not supposed to be looking at it from your perspective. You’re supposed to be looking at it through the eyes of your prospective customer.

There is a man named Claude C. Hopkins. His name may or may not ring a bell, but he is an early pioneer of marketing and advertising. He was born in 1866 and died in 1932, I think. Back then, marketing was not a term. It was advertising. He wrote a book called Scientific Advertising, a blunt, curt, short sentences, lots of words, directive. Not an easy read. But if you get into it, you understand marketing and attraction, he was dead-on long before fellows like Dan Kennedy and Gary Halbert and Makepeace and Ogilvy- all of those fellows built their logic and philosophies off of Hopkins. Yeah, you’ve got to know how your audience thinks, what they believe in, what they are attracted to.

And I think you may have heard me talk about one time or another, I don’t know if I used this in a previous episode I’ve been on, but Dan Kennedy was approached by a hearing aid company to write a marketing campaign for them. He studied them for weeks. The hearing aid industry has been using the same approach since the hearing aid began. It’s always been, you’ll be able to hear the birds chirping again. You won’t have to be embarrassed about not going to dinner with your friends because you can’t hear them. Or people get frustrated with you when you are hard of hearing.

He talks about this husband and wife, and the man comes down in the middle of the night. He thinks, I can’t sleep, the kids are upset, they don’t know what’s going on with Mom. She comes down the stairs because she hears him rustling around the refrigerator. She asks him, “What’s the matter, honey?” “The kids are upset. The kids are nervous. They don’t know what’s going on with your health. They’re worried.” Make a long story shorter, she wasn’t concerned about whether she could hear the birds chirp or the subtle lines in a movie. She was concerned with the fact that because it’s been said that loss of hearing is a part of the brain that the synapses stop firing, it’s an early sign of dementia. That was what her concern was. She didn’t want to get locked up in a home because the kids thought she was losing her mind.

That is when Kennedy realized that and validated that concept. The revenues of the company he was working with literally quadrupled, and then quadrupled again. He understood what the market concern was, what they were really looking for. They’re not looking for sound. They’re looking for a sense of security.

Marketing is that way. You have to get past what you think your customer or your donor needs. You have to get to the root cause of the concern or the desire. That is the big difference in the way we market today versus how we marketed in the past.

Hugh: I have a sense that Russell will ask you about this data mining thing. Before he does, would you talk about how people confuse public relations, marketing, sales, and communication? Can you strip those out for us?

David: PR, public relations, is a lot more than writing press releases. PR is helping you position yourself as an influencer, getting you in the right spot so that people notice you, becoming a familiar face in your community. Media relations is part of PR, to where they have a working relationship with the local media channels, be it TV, radio, print. When they have something to share with the community, they can pick up the phone and say, “Hey George, good to see you last week at the rotary club. I have a new thing to share. Can you help me out?” That’s effective media relations and PR. Obviously, it’s press releases, but it’s more than that. They have working relationships with marketers.

But the marketing section of that is more of the research, understanding the customer, what the expressed needs are, and what solutions they can provide better than anybody else can. That is structuring their own business to do so.

Sales is where the conversion happens from interested party to customer. Sales is not necessarily wining and dining and nurturing the client. That is the role of marketing. A salesman is there to get the order, to answer the objections that the prospect might have, and close the deal. That is the extent to what it is.

Oftentimes, smaller organizations, all of those are rolled into one person. In an effective organization, those are separate roles. Marketing and sales has to work hand in hand, as does PR, so that everybody is on the same page in regard to the message, how it’s controlled, where it’s going to, its best point of view. But they are in fact separate entities.

I hope that answers your question.

Russell: That covers it pretty well. One word that is not often used when it comes to nonprofit entities is value. Businesses will do value proposition designs. It’s what keeps people awake at night. What are the things that bother them? What jobs do they have to do? What keeps them awake at night? What would make their lives better? That is a piece of talking to these multiple audiences. Find out what is valuable to them in their language. That requires a lot of data points. There is some information that is more important than others. Talk about ways that nonprofits can approach talking about value in a way that is easy for them to understand and use. If it’s tough for them, they won’t do it.

David: From a value standpoint, the nonprofit has a mission. In order to fulfill their mission, they need to be sustainable. They need to grow their revenues and volunteer staff to sufficient levels in order to do that. The value they bring to the community is- Pick a nonprofit. They may be saving lives through blood drives. They may be feeding the hungry. The value proposition is such that we are your agent to help you fulfill the dream that you have of a better world. That is what we bring to the table. We have the mechanisms and projects not only for you to contribute to our efforts, but to get involved in our efforts.

That is where the real value proposition comes in. Nonprofits will align themselves with a business and say, “We’re not looking for just a check. We are serious about our mission. We are looking for those companies and organizations that are willing to become socially responsible because we have the truck behind us with plenty of room to carry a lot of people. Why don’t you have your employees volunteer with us? Set up a volunteering program. Pay your employees four hours a month to actively be involved in their community. Along with your financial support, you can shine in the community. It will bring the center stage lighting right on top of you. You will be in the spotlight because our community relations in the media is such that we will make sure that everybody will know that you are a featured sponsor or donor or champion of our cause.” That is what they bring in terms of value to the donor or volunteer staff on a larger scale rather than working one-on-one. The value proposition one-on-one is harder to convey. Although the explanation I’ve given is rather crude and off the top of my head, I think the message is there. You can develop it with a little bit of thought.

Russell: When organizations partner with businesses, for example for sponsorships, there are certain things they are looking for. Those are data points. Data collection sounds scary and confusing. Are there some tools nonprofits can use that are low-cost and easy to access, understand, and use that can help them create avatars or profiles of different types of customers?

David: Sure, there are. We use a system of data science which is where my partner shines. He is a master at data. What he will do with our clients is not every client is a client for us. There is some qualifications that come into play. Let’s say it’s a medium-sized nonprofit who have been around for a few years. They have a good-sized database. We will look at history. We will go back a thousand days, right around three years. We are going to look at that stuff and see how many people have donated at such and such level and how many of those people did it more frequently than others. You have to look at the dollar amount, the frequency, and the length of time.

Let’s say you’ve got 1,000 names. You’ve identified the first batch. You go in at the next level. Let’s use the same framework, figure out who those donors are, and we will take a level at those two clusters as one and say these are probably the best suited donors that we could possibly ever have. History has shown us this is who they are. They donate this much money, they’ve been here for this long, they donate every month/quarter/year, and they are really the support for us. A lot of the others, sure. Everyone is valuable. But the most valuable are the ones-

You should modify your avatar, your ideal client to mirror this group. That is who you should be going after. Not everybody you thought of in the past. Take a look at what the data says because the data doesn’t lie. Numbers never lie. Framework that into your new avatar. Craft your messaging specifically for them. Your conversion of donor attraction will improve. The numbers will improve as well. There are easy ways to do that, but it takes time. You don’t have to analyze every record. You can get it all on one spreadsheet. Eyeball it. Rank it in terms of numbers. Rank it in terms of frequency. You will have that information. It sounds like a big project. Data science, I’m afraid of that. It’s just understanding what you’re looking at. There are coaches and consultants who can help with that.

Hugh: It’s important to know how to construct that because people brag about hits. Hits are how idiots track success.

David: How idiots track success. I love it. Hits don’t pay the rent. I’ll tell you that for sure. Likes and hits.

Hugh: They won’t pay you a salary. Talk about conversions. It’s an illusive thing.

David: Talk about conversion?

Hugh: It’s different than a Baptist church. Talk about conversions in marketing.

David: You have a prospect. You have been talking with them for some time. You are developing a relationship with them. You know them, and they know you. Sooner or later, they will raise their hand and say, “I’m ready. Let’s make this transaction. Let’s do this big donation.” At that point, that is when you are converting them from a lead to a buyer or to a donor. That is what conversion is. In order to improve your conversion, you have to improve your lead generation and your lead nurturing quicker and more frequently.

Hugh: This is good stuff. We are on our last 10 minutes. Russ has got another ending question for you, and then we will throw it to you to give people a closing thought or challenge. Then Russ will close us out.

Russell, what is your last question for this information whiz here?

Russell: Having some data to look at is very important. But I’m astounded by the number of people who have actually done no tracking or have information scattered across spreadsheets and journals. It’s not in one place. They are small. They don’t have people with that expertise. They don’t have the funds for an advisor. What are some of the steps that these people can do to collect this type of information that can be analyzed in a way that makes it useful and helps grow their donor base?

David: One of the easiest ways to do this is obviously research the internet. Second to that is to identify somebody or some organization that helps nonprofits understand and grow either through coaching or taking on a company that focuses on data science and internal marketing. That is what we do. That is not a sales push.

I have several pieces of information that I think would be valuable to nonprofits that helps explain all of that stuff. I’d be glad to share that with anybody who would like the information. They can reach me at My company was Marketing Partners. This is my major client I am working with to help him grow his business at this point. His platform and I are working on a project now specifically geared only for nonprofits that provides soup-to-nuts, done-for-you services that are affordable. A lot of stuff we do is at no cost. We will be happy to share whatever information we can to help them on their way.

Getting some coaching, some chatting, that sort of thing will help them remove some of the fear of, Oh my goodness, it’s such a daunting project. The hardest part of any project is getting started. If you can find an easy way to get started that doesn’t cost you anything, that is a pretty fair deal. The biggest part of climbing Mount Everest is putting the gear on and taking the first step. By taking small steps, they can advance themselves rather easily and quickly. We are working with SynerVision to help us modify the programs we are putting together so that we can pull together an entire do-it-yourself program, marketing department in a box, that will provide all of the marketing assets and email campaigns and distribution means and direct mail products at an affordable price.

Hugh: Love it. Looking forward to that. This has been informational today. This interview has been dense with information.

*Sponsor message from Wordsprint*

David, what do you want to leave people with today?

David: I want to leave them with a couple of things. First of all, I want to leave them with the fact that yes, you have to make money to set it aside for leaner years. You have to be active. There is more money in the economy today than there has ever been in the history of the world. It’s just knowing how to approach people and attract people. We always give gifts before we ask for anything. You need to become a welcome guest instead of an annoying pest. Think about it. Think about it seriously. You have a precious mission to accomplish. You need all the help and resources you can. Why not take what you can learn and do on your own and do it better, do it right? That’s what I’d like to leave with you.

Hugh, you mentioned the word “tribe.” In late 2017, I wrote a book that I think I shared with your audience the last time I was on. I’d be happy to send anyone a paperback copy of my book. It’s called Leaders and Their Tribes. It’s a book for leadership that takes a look at how Native Americans in the last 600+ years have utilized leadership strategies that have always worked that we as today’s corporations and businesses are just beginning to figure out how to do. It’s a good, short read. I’d be happy to send one of those to anyone who sends an email to Thanks so much for having me on. It’s always a pleasure. I look forward to seeing you next month. I’ve solidified my project and travel arrangements, so I’ll see you in a few weeks.

Hugh: Be warned. We have new things coming. Put your seatbelts on.

Russell: Great stuff coming up. Thank you, David. It’s been a marvelous broadcast. If you are somebody who goes for donors with mobile search, go to Amazon and check out David Dunworth’s author page, where he has a book that talks about mobile marketing specifically.

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