Taking the ‘Ick’ out of the ‘Ask’
with Funding Professional Kel Haney
Kel Haney is an NYC & Maine-based fundraising expert with 15 years of experience in the field, specializing in Outbound Fundraising. She’s a Senior Consultant at Donorly.
Her work boils down to “taking the ick out of the ask.” “She believes that we can create fundraising conversations that are relationship-building opportunities, as opposed to transactional encounters.
Kel’s worked with such companies as MCC Theatre, Signature Theatre, Ensemble Studio Theatre, Manhattan Theatre Club, The O’Neill Theater Center, New York Theatre Workshop, Page 73 Productions, BroadwayUnlocked, The Glimmerglass Festival, and Paul Taylor Dance Company.
She spent twenty years as a theater director and her fundraising methodology is based on how she led a rehearsal room: focusing on what makes each of us unique and engaging.
Kel empowers artists, art administrators, & board members with the knowledge that they already possess the most critical tools needed to be skilled fundraisers (empathy, candor, vulnerability, enthusiasm, and storytelling).
Over her fundraising career, Kel has helped arts organizations raise approx. $10M, primarily in donations under $1.5K.
About the Interview:
Kel says: I’m planning to share my thoughts on how to make a fundraising ask over the phone. I’ve developed a 4 step method that creates The Arc of the (Phone) Call. My methodology empowers fundraisers to have genuine, personalized, relationship-building interactions–all without a script.
For more information, go to: https://donorly.com/
Read the Interview Transcript
Hugh Ballou: Welcome back to The Nonprofit Exchange. I am Hugh Ballou, the founder and president of SynerVision Leadership Foundation. We have all kinds of fascinating people on this interview series. Today’s interview is no exception. Kel Haney is coming to us today with a funding hat. Her title is “Take the Ick out of the Ask.” Before we get into this icky stuff, let’s let Kel Haney tell us about herself. Tell people who you are. Why do you do this work that you do?
Kel Haney: Thank you so much, Hugh. I’m so excited to be here today. My name is Kel Haney. I am an outbound fundraising expert. What I do is coach people in how to fundraise in a way that is comfortable and authentic to who each of us are as individuals. I do it because I love it. I’ll start there.
I come from a background as a theater director. I have an artist background. I needed to support myself in some way as a theater director in my 20s in New York City. I started to fundraise over the phone for my favorite nonprofit theater. Go figure, within about a decade, I accrued my 10,000 hours+ on the phone making fundraising asks. In that time, I raised between $6-7 million, mostly in gifts under $2,000. It was “smaller donations.” I really love it.
From there, I ended up working as a consultant. It became this parallel career as I was still working on my directing career. I helped other organizations start their own fundraising “call rooms” and started to consult more.
Then the pandemic hit. I ended up going to full-time fundraising, a way I never anticipated it would happen. I am finding myself artistically fulfilled and living a life I never expected. Instead of pounding the pavement as a theater director, I am now imparting my knowledge and experience onto a whole bunch of other people and helping them empower themselves as they learn how to be stronger, more confident fundraisers.
Hugh: I love it. When you filled out our form about the interview, I asked, “What is the message you want to share with people?” I am going to read it because I liked it so much. “I am planning to share my thoughts on how to make a fundraising ask over the phone. I have developed a four-step method that creates the arc of the phone call. My methodology empowers fundraisers to have genuine, personalized, relationship-building interactions all without a script.”
In there, we talked about relationships. I have professional fundraisers watching this. They always emphasize it’s relationship. Leadership is built in relationship. Communications is built in relationship. Any kind of funding is built on relationship. The phone is impersonal. Unpack this more, the relationship and the phone call.
Kel: There is some anonymity that is helpful in some ways toward making these asks. I find that sometimes, asking for these gifts over the phone, even if these are individuals who have a strong relationship with the organization already, particularly with leadership or the development department, sometimes talking to a person they don’t know on the phone, we learn more things or different things than they’re necessarily going to share face to face with someone they already have a relationship with. It’s wild, but it happens all the time.
Whatever is happening on those calls, make sure that information is documented in your org’s CRM, just to continue to grow that relationship and make sure that whomever else is talking to that person has whatever new information you just learned. Get a great story about how they actually love music. Their grandmother took them to the symphony as a child in a way you never knew. Or they have a child who is an actor that we didn’t know about. Or we find out they are on a board we didn’t anticipate.
There is all sorts of information we think we should be able to get in terms of more standard forms of research, but that qualitative research that happens on the phone is really valuable. I know that sounds kind of crazy, but seriously, that anonymity of having a little bit of distance from someone sometimes makes the moment of the call feel more intimate. It’s wild.
Hugh: It does make sense. It’s not intuitive. Someone would not make that judgment unless you have certainly put in the hours and know what you’re talking about. We hate picking up the phone. We, meaning nonprofit leaders. We hate the phone. Why is that?
Kel: Because it’s vulnerable. It’s so vulnerable. There is something about the action, just that there is no other pretense. We’re not even having a meal. I’m just making the call. We as a culture have moved away from having phone conversations. That became intimate in a way that it wasn’t 10, 20, 40 years ago. That intimacy can be really useful. There is something a little archaic about picking up the phone. Again, that leads to another level of intimacy. I can’t tell you how many people I train as fundraisers over the phone who call potential donors who say, “I can’t tell you the last time I had a phone call, or a phone call that was this good, that felt this comfortable.” It’s the vulnerability that is challenging.
Hugh: Fundraisers talk about different stages. Are there different points in that process where you make phone calls? Or is it just for the ask? Or is there a cultivation, getting acquainted? Then there is the follow-up process.
Kel: Yes. It depends on the client with whom I’m working. Personally, I really believe there is a way in the same conversation to cover cultivation and also make an ask if it’s feeling right, if that’s where the conversation is headed. If the conversation isn’t headed there, and I can walk you through this more specifically, I think there’s a way to make a softer ask or just let the potential donor know what’s happening at the org and see if that opens them up to more questions, more interest in terms of actionable items right now. I think it can be both.
That’s the hardest obstacle I’m finding in my work right now: breaking through that more standard way of seeing things. “Here is the method we follow. It starts with cultivation and at a different time we get to the ask.” I think there is a way to do both in a call and train people to follow what’s happening with the potential donor to see what they’re game for for the day.
Hugh: I love it. I’m all for that. I teased people with your statement, “I have developed a four-step method that creates the arc of the call.” Could you unpack that for us?
Kel: Yeah. I’m a really visual person. I come from a background as a theater director, so I use a lot of methodology that is similar to how I ran a rehearsal room. It really is about each of us figuring out what makes each of us unique.
I am giving some “tentpoles.” What I imagine in my head is there is a tent that is this phone conversation toward an ask. There is four different tentpoles. The idea is if you know these four points that you’re hitting on the call, it gives you space to go on what I call our tributaries with the person on the phone.
As you start to talk to each other, for instance, I am on this island outside of Portland, Maine. It’s gorgeous today, almost 50 degrees, which might as well be summer as far as we’re concerned. It’s stunning. If you and I were on the call, and we started to talk about “It’s really rainy where I am right now,” and we had some back and forth, it’s fine to go with the flow of that tributary because I know where I’m going to bring the call to next. That’s the four tentpoles. I can walk you through what the four of them are.
Part of the reason I don’t use a “script” or don’t encourage one is because we as individuals are bombarded by so much all the time. We know when someone is being inauthentic with us. Every step of this process, I’m trying to figure out how can we be as authentic as fundraisers as possible? Guess what? That takes vulnerability. That’s not about being perfect. Obviously, we are all so invested in this idea of trying to be as perfect, “I’m trying to get my armor as tight and take as much care of myself as possible.” Being more free wielding, being a little messier, being a little bit more ourselves, a little bit less formal is what allows someone to connect with us and for them to put down their armor as well and actually have a genuine conversation.
Hugh: As a keynote speaker, early on, I had a script. Then I had notes. I would put them all over the floor and know what comes next. Then I would have PowerPoints and depend on those. I finally eliminated all of those, and I talked to people. That was so liberating for me. I can tell when someone is on the phone reading a script, either from a piece of paper or on the back of their eyelids because they have memorized it. I get it. When I work with choirs as a choral conductor, and they get rid of the sheet music, it’s another dimension. Part of it is insecurity. We want to make sure we say the right things in the right order. There is a rehearsal part of this, isn’t there?
Kel: Yeah, there is. While I say I don’t train with a script, I think people can have notes. Like you said, go on the journey that you’re on. If you need your own notes in front of you to get started, that’s fine. I think it’s better if that’s generated by the individual fundraiser as opposed to me saying, “Here’s exactly how you should say this” because it’s better if it sounds like you. It’s better if we’re using our own vernacular. I like to say my own Kelexicon. Whatever the words are that you use that feel right is a really good way to start.
Hugh: People want to use silly excuses. “Oh, you’re an actress. You’re on the stage.” “You’re the conductor. You have the presence.” No. It’s often what you said, being authentic to you. Talk about those four tentpoles.
Kel: Absolutely. I’ll go through the four of them. If we want to break them down more, I’m happy to do that.
The first one is the first 15 seconds of the call, which is definitely the most important. That’s the part of the call that actually will be the most rehearsed and that I have the most directive tips to help you.
Second comes what I call the main event. This is the moment when you’re inviting that person in to talk about your organization. You’re sharing with them the updates and what is going on right now with your org. Of course, one of the things that’s always going on with our organizations is we’re fundraising.
That makes it a really easy bridge into the third one, which is the actual ask of the call. But the way I train, the whole idea is that I want you to be in that conversation, so you don’t even realize you’re in the place of the ask. I try to avoid any kind of odd transition or pivot into the ask. It should feel like the rest of the call. I can break that down further.
The fourth is wrapping up. Anything logistical that you need in terms of your org, if they are making a gift and figuring out if it’s a pledge, if it’s now. Making sure you get all of the administrative information to help your organization be able to follow through with this gift. Also to make sure you’re setting up what your next touchpoint of connection and communication with this person is, whether they agree to a donation or not.
I’m always looking at how are we building this as a larger relationship? For me, it’s never about the specific transaction of the call. It’s really about using this moment to build that relationship stronger and more clear. I’m always looking at whenever we hang up the phone, setting up what the next point of contact is. When should this person expect to hear from us again?
Hugh: Let’s take a deeper dive. This is the meat of what’s really important. After you do those, I want to go to the ick thing. Give us the deep dive first.
Kel: Okay. #1, that first 15 seconds. We exist in a culture where we are getting robo calls, spam calls, people calling us from different time zones who have nothing to do with the organization that we’re calling from. The whole idea is immediately to get in there and let this person know exactly why you’re calling. What I encourage is opposed to having like we would in our regular life a little bit of extra pleasantries of me first asking, “Hi, am I speaking with Hugh? Hi, Hugh. My name is Kel. I am calling from The Nonprofit Exchange. How are you today?” and giving that space.
Instead, I am going to call and say, “Hi, Hugh. My name is Kel Haney. I am a consultant working with The Nonprofit Exchange. So random that I’m calling you today, I know, but I am touching base because we are in a fundraiser right now, and you have been involved in the past. We wanted to let you know what was going on right now. First and foremost, how are you doing? I see that you’re in Virginia right now. It’s gorgeous in Maine. What’s it like there?”
You’re learning a lot really fast. It is a little bit bombarding. That’s actually important for the transparency of the call. I’m saying immediately who I am, my connection directly to the org, them as the potential donor their connection to the org, and also giving them a sense of why I’m calling. I want to give them an update. We would love to get them more involved. I am starting from there. That is the first one.
Hugh: That’s great. I can do that.
Kel: Right? It’s okay if it’s a little bit of a script. I really do encourage the people who I coach to focus on that first 15 seconds. Come out. It’s like that Malcolm Gladwell Blink split second impression. It’s better to come out and share it all and have that person say, “Oh, wow, hi, Kel. I didn’t expect your call. I saw this number and I thought it was my doctor.” “Oh, I’m so sorry. I’m just calling you from The Nonprofit Exchange. Here’s why I’m touching base today.”
I’m humanizing myself. I’m sharing that I am a human. I am a professional fundraiser. Hopefully, everything that we’re all fundraising for are things we are personally passionate about. We’re sharing our connection from the get-go. If you had a musician calling for an orchestra, you’d say, “I’m actually a second violinist.” Be as specific as possible about your connection to the org right off the bat.
Hugh: I can see your background as a theater director coming out here. We enable other people to raise the bar on their own performance. Also, I want to note something I think is important. I can see that you’re smiling. If you were on the phone, I could tell that you’re smiling. There is a whole demeanor about your presence.
Kel: It’s all connected. When I first started to fundraise, and I was competitive with somebody else in the room, I would stand. It just felt really good to stand. I don’t actually make these calls myself anymore, but when I would need to invigorate myself, I’d stand for a while. I had an exercise ball I’d sit on.
Back to your point originally about nonprofit leaders not liking to make these calls. A bit of my own tributary at the moment. I would encourage them to figure out where in your workspace feels comfortable. Go someplace else to make the calls. It doesn’t have to be right at your desk. Sit and look out a window. Have a cup of coffee or tea. Treat yourself because you’re doing something more vulnerable than you’re usually doing. Change your environment a little bit in order to shake it up to make these calls. That is not one of the four tentpoles, but it’s another good tip for making these calls.
Hugh: We have #1. Let’s go on to #2.
Kel: #2 is the main event. This is when we’re sharing what’s going on with the org. This is something I’d encourage you to think about a fair amount before you start to make these calls. I’m coming from a theater background, but we can all do this. What is the narrative of what we want to share on this particular call? What’s happening at your organization? This is a good moment. I’m always looking to make something be an event. What’s happening? Did you just start this particular fundraiser? Are you in the middle of it? “We need some extra momentum to get us over the hump. We’re almost halfway there.” Are you in the last 10 or 20%?
It’s really good in this moment to share as many specific facts as possible. People want to be involved. The more that we can share, “We’re trying to raise $100,000 as the end of our fiscal year approaches, which is June 30.” Wherever you are on that, “We just started,” or “We’re doing great. We actually have $20,000 to go. I am personally trying to bring in $10,000 this week alone.” The more we can get specific with our given circumstances, the better. People love a silver lining.
Telling them things, if you’re involved with an organization, and there is something that people can benefit from, whether that’s, “You can come to this particular event. We’re back in person now. Would love to have you on April 25. Come see this live event that we’re having.” Or, “We have this new material online. We’d love for you to check it out on your own.” It’s your moment to share some great things that are happening.
From there, I’d go into, “We are on our end of year fundraiser.” I’d start to share the information specifically about where we are in the fundraiser. I am throwing a lot of information out very quickly.
It’s also really great if you can craft a challenge grant. I find that is really helpful on these calls, to be able to say, “We have a donor who is matching every gift up to $1,000, totaling $20,000.” I am always looking for how I can make the fundraising space more equitable. That idea of connecting donors who are donating a larger gift to the organization, to the donors who are bringing in smaller gifts, how to connect those two groups. It’s important.
It’s fun because, I’m sure you’ve had this, when people apologize for what they’re able to donate, “No, thank you for the gift.” I really do truly know that sometimes somebody making a gift of $2,500 is shifting their budget for the next month or two versus somebody who is giving $25,000 who doesn’t have to think about it anymore. It’s not about the actual monetary amount. It’s about what’s behind that and the gesture. I’m always trying to find a way to connect those two things.
Hugh: I want to clarify assumptions. You’re calling a person that we know or knows us. They know about the organization. When you say a fundraiser, there is some context around that. You’re talking to somebody who is aware of what you do and that you have been raising money. This is not a cold call.
Kel: Good question. I don’t think that pure cold calls work. There is just so much ground to cover. That being said, frequently, we do need to remind this person how they’re connected. For instance, I work with a lot of arts organizations. I’m curious about experiential nonprofits who have had some kind of experience with that particular org. We may call somebody who’s come to our arboretum and doesn’t remember. But I know that last October, they came to visit us.
That would be part of that first 15 seconds, saying, “I don’t know if you remember this, but you came and visited our arboretum last October. I think there were four of you. I actually remember that weekend because it was gorgeous, and I love that you were here. First and foremost, I want to hear how it went, how you enjoyed your experience with us. Also, what brought you here in the first place?”
I haven’t mentioned this yet, but curiosity is really key. Curiosity and candor are two good C words to put in place of that old, icky idea of always be closing. I don’t think like that. I think about how I can always be candid and how I can always be curious.
Hugh: This is so key to relating to the person. This is just very inspiring. You need to know who they are and know something about them. There is always a danger that especially somebody with high net worth feels like they’re being treated like an ATM. You just presented the opposite of that. We’re halfway.
Kel: The last two are quicker and easier, if you can believe it. If I’m calling you and telling you what’s going on right now at our organization, and I’m also trying to invite you in, the idea is it’s not just about the donation. We don’t want people just to be ATMs. We want people to be active, positive members of our community and actually involved with what we’re doing.
I’m sharing what’s happening. Maybe share the silver lining of, “Right now, we have this 1:1 challenge match. We’re trying to raise $10,000 by the end of this month. I am personally trying to raise $5,000. Thought I would check in.”
This is a good moment, if you know anything about their giving history, that’s how you’re also crafting your ask. I could say, “Hugh, I know in the past you were great. You’ve given a gift of $5,000. Given that we have this goal for the end of the month, I am going to shoot for the moon and ask if there is a way you would do $6,000 this year. It would be matched as part of this matching grant. I just wanted to see if $6,000 was in the realm of possibility for you.”
Then I’m going to hold for the silence.
Hugh: That’s a key point right there.
Kel: It’s my favorite part. We rev up. I really work never to put someone on the spot. I’m not going to say, “Can you do it or not?” I’m going to say, “How does that sound? Is that within the realm of possibility so far? What do you think?” I am going to make it more from a place that is open-ended and curious. I don’t ever want to put someone on the spot. “Here is what we could use. Here is why. Here is particularly where we are on our fundraising journey at the moment. What do you think? Is that possible?” I am truly leaving it open.
Sometimes on the phone, people do say, “Hello? Kel? Are you still there?” I say, “Absolutely. I’m just taking a breath. Taking a sip of my coffee and waiting to hear what you think. What is your initial impulse on all of this?”
Hugh: That is when three seconds feels like an eternity.
Kel: I don’t know. I think it’s fun. It’s to the point of investing in the relationship, investing in the phone call, but not investing in the outcome. That is what we have no control over. We can control how we present ourselves on the call. We can control that we are leading from a place that is candid, authentic, passionate, specific, vulnerable, actively listening to the other person, hoping our brains move fast, and we can offer them the thing that feels right to them in that particular moment. But we can’t control what actually happens. No matter how good you are as a fundraiser, we can’t. We don’t want to strongarm people. We want people to feel good about their donations. I’m not in it in any way, shape, or form for a hard sell. It’s really from a place of, “What do you think?” and giving them space.
We just got into the third tentpole, and it doesn’t even feel like it because we started from talking about the involvement. We’re talking about everything going on in the org. Part of what’s going on is fundraising. “Here is where we are in the fundraising ask right now. This is what you did in the past. I’m going to shoot for the moon and see if you can do this. What do you think?”
You get to that place of holding the silence in the third tentpole without even necessarily realizing you got there. The whole idea is there is never that hard pivot or transition to the ask moment. It’s all intertwined with one another.
Hugh: Drumroll please, #4.
Kel: #4 is closing. Obviously, I don’t know about you all, but when I am in fundraising mode, all of my administrative thoughts go out of my head. I have to take a moment. If somebody says yes, I am going to celebrate. I am going to be very genuine and authentic and vulnerable and say, “This is awesome. I’m so glad you’re doing this. Thank you so much for this gift. You’re bringing us this much closer to our goal. Now I am going to take a deep breath and go over the logistics.”
It’s a great moment to make sure you have all of the correct contact info for this person. So many people have shifted their primary residences during the pandemic. Make sure you have the right address for them, the right email. Obviously, this phone number works. Is there another one they want us to have on file? Do they want to do this gift right now over the phone? Is it a pledge? Is it a pledge you’re dividing up? Get that logistical information.
As you’re hanging up, you’re going to remind them of that offering we have from our nonprofit, whether that’s coming to see a performing arts thing or checking out something on our website we think they may be interested in. Then I am going to say, “We’ll check in with you tail-end of the year and see how everything’s going. See if you have been able to check out more information on us or come to see a show.” I do believe you can actually make these kinds of calls twice a year.
Hugh: Couple of things. These are great. Is there ever a place where you know they gave $5,000 last year, and you say, “Because you gave that money, we were able to do X,” the impact of the donation, the results? Do you want to refer to what that person made possible?
Kel: There is lots of different places to do that. When you’re at the beginning of the conversation, it’s fine to say, “You have been so generous in the past. Thank you.” You should see if they have any kind of involvement other than a donation. “Also, I love that you came to this networking event that we had.” “I love that you wrote that email to our leadership when you had this reaction to Y.” You can always reference that.
I think it’s good to reference it more at the beginning of the call than it is when you’re making the ask. I like that ask to feel as light and what you think is possible. I’m front-ending a lot of that information at the beginning of the call to tee myself up so that the ask can feel more spontaneous and more free-wielding. That would be my advice on that.
Hugh: There are two places I know people do things wrong. The ask is a circular, we continue to talk about the programs, and we never get to that $5,000 specificity. We just keep going around. We don’t get to the real ask.
The second part is if we do, then we don’t do the silence. We interrupt it, which messes the whole thing up.
Are there other things people do wrong? Any advice on how to correct those?
Kel: Sure. What I tend to do is when I help someone craft their own arc, we come up with five or six talking points. To say on this particular call, let’s stick to two or three, depending on A) what the person I am training to fundraise is most passionate about about the org and B) actively listening to what the other person is saying. “Oh, you may be interested in this thing that’s going on with us.” I tend to have a list and know they are just going to stick to three tops. Knowing that they then, as I train them, segue into the last one of where we are in our fundraiser right now. The fundraiser can feel like it’s just another thing. It is. It’s just one more thing that’s happening at our org right now. That is how I’d suggest that.
The ask takes practice. The way I am really encouraging to be front footed in that first 15 seconds of who you are, why you’re calling, what that person’s connection is to our org, I think the same thing about the ask. I think the pause is integral to the process. If I was hearing somebody making calls, I would just say, “That sounded so great. Stick to the ask. Write yourself a Post-It.”
I love all that personal development stuff, so I have all sorts of positive things that sit in front of me at my desk. If you forget to hold for the silence, I work with people who write themselves a Post-It or a plaque they keep with them where they go, “Hold for the silence.” It’s challenging, but it’s simple. It’s challenging to get into the habit, but I don’t have much more to offer other than do what you’ve got to do. Make yourself signs all over. It will come with practice.
Hugh: People are all inspired now, and they want to know how to find this mysterious Kel Haney person. You work on your own, but you primarily work with a firm called Donorly.
Kel: Yes, you can find us at Donorly.com. This is a consulting firm that’s been around for 7-8 years at this point. Founded by my esteemed colleague I adore, Sandra Davis. She is the CEO. She had worked all over the country at nonprofits, operas, theaters. What she noticed was that small to mid-size nonprofits didn’t have the same access to research as larger organizations. That was the initial impetus for her founding Donorly. How could she connect small- to mid-range organizations with the research tools that the larger organizations have access to? That’s where we started.
Now we do all sorts of things. Definitely research is a part of everything. I work specifically on coaching what I call outbound fundraising. To me, that is any kind of fundraising that is initiated by the fundraising organization as opposed to the potential donor. Phone calls are a big part of that. These phone calls can work within the cadence of the rest of your communication with your organization. That works with your emails and direct mailing and social media. Those things can all work in tandem with one another.
If an organization is in a place where they’re growing and they need some interim staffing, that’s something that we do quite regularly. Help with special events. Get into the organization, work within whatever already exists with your org, and figure out what we can offer to help you grow in the direction you want to grow. It’s very customized what we do specifically to the particular organization as opposed to, “This is how we do it. You have to follow our way.” We will work within your CRM that you have, work within the leadership that you have, and figure out how to get you to the next step.
Donorly.com is the best way to find us. You can set up a complementary consultation with me and/or any of my colleagues. I really love being there.
If you want to learn more about me personally, you can go to KelHaney.com. I took down my theater director website. I now have up a website that is very barebones but talks about the kind of things we’re talking about right now, the work that I do with outbound fundraising.
Hugh: This is great. It occurs to me there is a whole lot to learn. I could talk to you all day, but I have to get on the phone and make some fundraising calls.
Kel: I like that you feel inspired. That’s great.
Hugh: Get out of my way! Kel Haney, this has been brilliant. You have given us passion. I have gotten a download of passion for this. It’s not a passion for many of us. We’re passionate about the work we do, but we have to put gas in the car. We have to put money in the bank so we can drive the car to where we’re going.
As we end this really helpful interview, what do you want to leave people with? A challenge, a thought, or tip.
Kel: I think I want to say back to that idea of taking the ick out of the ask. Trust that you being you, whoever you are, is all you need to be in these conversations. Yes, get really clear. Ask yourself the hard questions about what is it that you really love about this org? Why is this organization so important to you? Why are you putting so much of your time and energy into it? Why should someone else do the same? I think it’s okay to ask yourself those hard questions. Get into these conversations from a place that is vulnerable, candid, and curious about the person on the other end of the phone, in this particular case.
Hugh: Wise words. Kel Haney, thank you so much for being our guest today.
Kel: Thank you, Hugh.