Terms and Conditions of Value-Based Leadership with Noel Massie

Noel Massie served as Vice President of UPS’s U.S. Operations from 2016-2019. In this role, Massie supported and guided the package delivery and logistics services in the United States.

Prior to his service as VP, he held various positions within the organization, including:

• President of three separate business units – Chicago, Virginia, California
• Operations Division Manager – Distribution centers
• Corporate Schools Coordinator – Curriculum development for internal
• leadership schools

Currently, Noel is a member of three Boards:

• The Annenberg Foundation – a $1.7 billion endowment, Noel serves on their
• investment committee helping to guide investment strategy.
• The Los Angeles Urban Leagues Executive Committee – Noel has served
• as the Board Chairman for nine years.
• Chapter One US – Noel serves as the Global Advisory Chair.

Massie has previously on served Boards of the following organizations:

• Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce (Board Chair)
• Inland Empire Economic Partnership, Southern California
• Orange County Business Counci, Southern California
• Los Angeles United Way
• UCLA of Luskin School of Public Policy
• Chicago Workforce Board

Noel has been recognized for his commitment to the communities where he has lived and worked with a variety of honors and rewards, including:

• 100 Most Influential Leaders Award, Orange County, Southern California
• Spirit of Entrepreneur Award, California State University, San Bernardino
• NAWBO Man of the Year Award (National Association of Women Business
• Owners)
• Peter Drucker School of Management Supply Chain Leadership Award
• Community Service Award, Office of the Mayor, Los Angeles
• Community Service Award, Office of the Mayor, Chicago

Massie has been featured in publications such as the L.A. Times, the Orange County Register, Door to Door (written by Edward Humes), and the Harvard Business Review.

Massie has been a keynote speaker at a wide range of notable conferences and events. For more information about Noel’s availability to speak at events, visit his contact page.

Massie studied electrical engineering at San Jose State University and holds a degree in Business Management from LaSalle University.

Massie is also an author and recently wrote a book titled Congrats! You’ve Been Promoted.

 

The Interview Transcript

Hugh Ballou:
Welcome to the nonprofit exchange. This is Hugh Ballou, host and founder of a nonprofit called SynervVision Leadership Foundation, where we build synergy around teams because the leader has a vision. And my guest today is a repeat. Every now and then, I have somebody that’s so influential, has so much great content. This is twice I’ve done this. I’ve invited them back for part two. So Noah Massie, welcome back for part two. Your topic is Terms and Conditions of Value-Based Leadership. So welcome to the Nonprofit Exchange.

Noel Massie:
Hey, Hugh. Thanks for having me again. I really appreciate the opportunity for us to have a conversation for a second time. Our first discussion was very, robust, and hopefully your listeners got some value from it, and I look forward to today.

Hugh Ballou:
We’ve had a lot of views and a lot of downloads of that episode, so we thought, well, this is about his book. Congratulations, you’ve been promoted. So this sounds like a corporate book, so there are themes here that are important for nonprofit leaders and faith leaders, so we’re going to highlight those today. It’s not only about corporate leadership, is it?

Noel Massie:
It is not. It is not. And as a matter of fact, you know, if you are not on a board and you join a board, nonprofit or otherwise, you have been promoted to that board. So the fact of the matter is, is that any time you enter an environment that someone’s asked you to enter, they are bringing you into it and they are essentially promoting you to that.

Hugh Ballou:
And there’s a lot of people in leadership and all levels in nonprofits that have really good skills, really good programs, a really good heart, but it’s not exactly the right thing yet for them. So this is how they can upgrade their own personal skills. So we just to remind people, you had a career in UPS.

Noel Massie:
Yes.

Hugh Ballou:
And you also, we were talking about this, the Urban League we talked about just now.

Noel Massie:
Los Angeles Urban League. Yep. Annenberg Foundation.

Hugh Ballou:
Yes. So you’ve been very involved in the nonprofit community, but you got the experience of a high level leadership and leadership training with UPS. And we talked about some of the systems there. So let’s hit on this terms and conditions for a minute before we go into some of the additional topics. I want people to know that on the page for this interview, thenonprofitexchange.org, you’ll find this episode and you’ll find a link to get this book. This is a leadership book every leader should have in their library. Now, we’re not selling books here, but this is about what are the best resources that are going to be the most practical for the work that we’re called to do. So we’ve been promoted. We’re leadership where we join we started or we took the job for this nonprofit position because we want to help people Now we have to learn how to run the organization so we can help more people So let’s give us the reframing again. What do you mean by terms conditions? And then let’s go into your b-e-s-t Acronym, please

Noel Massie:
Yeah, so thanks for that, Hugh. So just for the listener’s benefit, Noel Massey, retired vice president of U.S. delivery operations for UPS, which meant I had responsibility for a couple hundred thousand employees in the U.S. delivery operation led by around 12 to 13,000 management leaders. And in addition to that, I was chairman of the board of the Los Angeles Urban League, chairman of the board of the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce, something I was really honored to be selected by my peer group to be. And I currently sit on the Annenberg Foundation, one of the largest nonprofit foundations in the United States. Chapterone.org, where we focus on second and early education literacy from K through six. So I’ve been on many nonprofit boards. And when I look at leadership, I look at leadership in a very idiosyncratic way. Leadership is leadership, whether it’s nonprofit, whether it’s business, people or people. And the fact of the matter is, is here’s one thing just about every organization where there’s more than one human being has in common. It once there’s more than one person participating, there’s a leader involved. Someone’s leading someone. It was a donut shop or a large multinational corporation or a law office. There’s going to be a leader. But here’s the thing. Where do people learn how to do that? Typically, the books on leadership are high-level, organizationally driven, in some way for C-suite individuals or general managers or executive directors, blah, blah, blah. But they’re not books that say, once you’re in the leadership role, there’s a dynamic. And the dynamic surrounds terms and conditions. And if I were to ask anyone, and I’ve done this more times than I can count, and I just did it yesterday with a corporation that’s engaged me to help them develop their platform. And I asked the general manager, write down the five most important things to you on a daily basis with your team. And he did that. And then I went to some employees on the front line, the workers. And I said, write down five things that you believe are the most important things the organization would like from you. And they did that. And then I asked the managers for those employees. Same thing. And they were all different. So the terms and conditions of value-based leadership go to, A, values are important to establish intentionally. Things like integrity don’t just show up unless you drive them. Ethics don’t become a value in the organization unless you announce it and live it, but you have to say it. As well as fairness in the workplace, what does that even look like? That’s not this obvious thing to a lot of people. So what is it? It’s a lack of favoritism, right? There’s none. So fairness means you don’t participate in favorites. Because people do, whether they subconsciously or consciously do it. So I talk about that in the book and say, write down the five most important values you must receive from who you work for as an individual. And it’s going to be listening, trust, being honest, those kinds of things. It’s always the same stuff. Respect, right? And so those are the terms and conditions that are required for you to stay a member of that group. And if those things get violated, people quit. And the fact of the matter is, is people quit people, not companies. An organization I just mentioned a minute ago engaged me because 50% of the people they hire quit within a month, six weeks in the training cycle. So they have 50% retention and they want to improve it. Well, then they need to improve the terms and conditions in that environment around those individuals. And so that’s what part one of the book is about. Part two of the book you mentioned a moment ago has principles in it, and it actually has tactical approaches, right? Okay, now we agree terms and conditions matter. How do we live them when there’s a conflict? How do we live them in our daily exchanges with each other, in our meetings, in our groups. So the best principle is B, period, E, period, S, period, T, period. The best principle, all capitalized. And what do they stand for? The B stands for be clear. What it means is don’t be ambiguous. When you have something to communicate in training specifically, be clear. We’re here so that you, Hugh, learn how to drive a forklift safely, effectively, and properly. Expect the best. And I know, Hugh, you wouldn’t be making this investment if you didn’t want to accomplish this outcome. So I really believe you’re going to engage in this training, You’re going to do well in this training. And I’m going to say it. It won’t be ambiguous. Right. I’m going to create motivation immediately. Stick to the objective. We are here to learn how to drive a forklift effectively. Right. There’s 37 steps in this process. And we’re going to go from one to 37. We’re not going to go from one to three to 10. We’re going to stick to the plan so that you become really good at this thing. And then test commitment. When it’s all said and done, I’m going to have you, Hugh, repeat what you’ve learned so that we have an agreement that you are now competent. So it’s a frame. It’s a frame. It’s not the picture. Because you put inside of the best principle, the other techniques in the book, like the four by five method, like the seven steps of effective training, like daily messaging with your team. There’s a script on how you actually do that effectively so that retention is high. So that’s what the best principle is. And it works.

Hugh Ballou:
Let’s address those one at a time, but there’s a myth that I encounter, and I’ve served churches, pretty large ones, for 40 years, and I’ve worked with many, many nonprofits, and there’s a myth that, oh, they’re a volunteer, we can’t ask them to do much, we can’t correct them, we can’t tell them what to do. I say that’s baloney. I think there’s no difference in setting a paradigm, expecting the excellence, and then asking for a specific objective. Because you have people, hopefully you’ve chosen the right person who’s competent, you have competent people and they’re there because of their passion and we can help them achieve their passion. So address that myth that because we’re dealing with volunteers, it’s got to be a lower standard.

Noel Massie:
Well, there doesn’t ever have to be that, a lower standard. As a matter of fact, that’s a really bad pathway to take for all the obvious reasons of what’s said there. The standard for anything is there for a purpose, a reason, an outcome, right? And so for anyone to go down a pathway where there is a standard, right? Here’s what good looks like. Here’s what right is. And to say, well, we’re going to negotiate that. That alone debunks the fact that that’s going to be an effective place to go ever.

Hugh Ballou:
And it’s a downward spiral. So the other tools, tactical tools, we sometimes we’re dealing with pressure, with stress. And so having a methodology is helpful. So you mentioned the four by five method and then the seven steps of effective training for onboarding and skill development. Pick those one at a time and let’s talk about those.

Noel Massie:
OK, so let’s start with the four by five method first and foremost. It’s a tactic, a structure. an approach, however you want to frame that in your own head, on how to engage in a conversation where you need, at the end of the day, to create influence in someone’s mind about a thing, right? You know, you can’t tell someone how to think. That’s number one. And you see that today in social media where people are just yelling at each other and here’s my point and there’s no agreement and all they’re doing is yelling and nothing gets accomplished and however long they’re engaged in that, they just get mad. Well, here’s what gets accomplished, they get mad, right? Well, that’s not leadership, okay? You can’t walk in a room and tell your employees, we’re going to grow revenue by 20% today, period. And they go, okay, glad you told us that, right? Life just doesn’t work that way in any fashion or form, nonprofit or for profit, just doesn’t. So the four by five method gives the leader an approach to take when a topic is on the table and they believe it’s important enough to influence the individual they’re speaking to in a way that that person will support. And that’s a key in a way that that person will support because leadership is influence, no more, no less. It’s the ability to influence the behavior of an individual or group without coercion, without coercion. The minute someone’s coerced, that’s not leadership. OK, that’s just not that’s not what leadership is. Coercion is coercion. OK, so in the typical world we live in, where the groups work together, in a nonprofit environment or an organization, they have goals they want to achieve, things they want to do. And that means people are going to do them and they’re going to want to know why they’re doing them. What’s the objective and the outcome? The four by five method helps that. What does it mean? It means that people look through four essential lenses. In a way that influences how they think about that topic, they’re going first, they’re going to see it through their own. So their own perspective is the most powerful. Period. Employee perspective, individual perspective. The next perspective that I talk about in the book is the leader’s perspective or the supervisor’s perspective. And I’ll give an example of that in a minute. The third perspective is going to be the organization’s perspective. We at so-and-so have a policy around X. It’s not the supervisor’s policy, not the employee’s policy, it’s the organization’s policy. That’s the third perspective. The fourth and final perspective is who are you serving? Who is the customer? Who is benefiting from their perspective? So those are the four perspectives. And again, I’ll share how those are deployed. And then the five stands for the approach, which is the level of intensity that you address a perspective or a topic from. Right. And intensity one, is exactly what it says. Think about the gears in the car. You’re in first gear. It’s the lowest level of intensity. So, okay, Hugh, I’d like to talk to you about the broken window I saw in the back of the building. Okay? I’d like to talk to you about it. Okay. The second intensity, we go to second gear. Hey, Hugh, I want to talk to you about the broken window in the back. Now you can feel how I just shifted from, Hey, you, I’d like to talk to you too. I want to talk to you by me saying, I want to talk to you. There’s a little bit more there. And if I go, Hey, Hugh, I need to talk to you about the broken window in the back of the building. You can see now we just amplified, but what didn’t amplify was my voice. That’s never acceptable. The way I communicate something being important is how I opened the sentence from. I like, I’d like, I want, I need. Now I want to go up another gear. Hey Hugh, We must talk about the window that’s broken in the back of the building. I just shifted to fourth, okay? And then finally, Hugh, we have to talk about the window that’s broken. The point of that exercise is to let the leader know this. Let me land the plane on this point, is that the importance of anything, Hugh, doesn’t happen through amplification of voice. It happens through words. And it happens in a way where if you want the person influenced, you won’t amplify your voice. There’s no argument you ever win through yelling. Period. You don’t yell someone into submission, even though people try every day, right? I’m going to yell you in to do compliance. Doesn’t work. So what works is an approach that gives some sense to the discussion. So I’m using an example. You come to work. And our worksite’s a construction worksite, and it requires you, well, steel-toed boots. And you come to work, and we’re in a hurry this morning, and you’re in sneakers. And you show up. And I’m your supervisor. And I go, Hugh, good morning. How are you doing? I’m great. So I was rushed this morning by, well, you’re wearing tennis shoes, sneakers, OK? So I would like to talk to you about, You’re wearing sneakers, intensity one. I would like to talk to you about it. It’s not amplified, right? And so I say, well, you know, Hugh, there’s two things. First of all, the reason the organization, company perspective, requires work boots is for your personal safety. That number one, you’re a valuable employee. I show appreciation and empathy, and I talk about that in the approach, right? You’re a valuable employee. And the last thing the organization wants is that you get hurt on the work site in tennis shoes and you break a foot or whatever the deal is, and they all go through your shoe. And now you’re out for a long time and your family’s going to suffer a consequence. You’re going to suffer a consequence. It’s just not safe. You just not safe. And that’s the organization’s perspective and the employee’s perspective combined. We have a policy. that we don’t allow it. And then number two, the employee perspective is you can be injured, right? So I use two perspectives in that discussion at intensity one. Okay, now you argue with me and go, no, but I need to work. I’m not gonna go home. No, and I go, Hugh, now I’m gonna shift gears. Okay, I need you to understand. We have a policy for a reason. And that policy isn’t gonna get violated today on my watch, supervisor perspective, right? But here’s the point of it. I have used a structure to have the discussion. I didn’t just think something up in a moment, right? I’ve been practicing this skill. I understand that to influence you, your perspective matters. So I’m going to generally have the employee’s perspective as part of that safety for you and your family, right? And then I’m going to spread it in a way that gives you a broader perspective. And in many cases, the most powerful perspectives are actually the employees. and the customer, right? Customers are relying on you. They trust you. We need your services there for that customer. Little Amplify would need, right? So the point is, is think of it in another way. I take you to a racetrack. I say, Hugh, occasionally you’re going to run into oil slicks on the road. So we’re going to teach you how to navigate them in this truck. And so the first time I get you in the truck, we drive through the oil slick, you spin around. You go, see, see what happened? And then I say, okay, now in order to do this, I’m gonna train you to do it in the truck. So we do it 20 times. And by the 20th time you get through it, no problem, boom, right? And we’re on a safe space, we’re on a track away from people. Here’s what happens when you see it for real in life. It’s not a surprise. You have a skill. You know how to navigate it. The 4×5 method is to teach how to drive through that oil slick safely and navigate that thing where you get a positive result and a buy-in from the employee in that situation. That’s what it gives.

Hugh Ballou:
The framework of the best and then having, you know, you’re filling in with the actual tactics, the, the, um, language where I see, I talked to a lot of leaders and we all want to blame. that other people are not doing what we want them to do. And your best thing is be clear. You have to define the results you want very clearly, not how to get there, because you’re talking to a competent person, not a kindergartner, hopefully. So, you know, be aware of the language. And also, you’re talking to me, looking at me and looking in my eyes. Talk about the… You don’t raise your voice. We got that part. But there’s a physical demeanor part of this. Talk about that in addition to the language.

Noel Massie:
Oh, my goodness. You know, you just hit the nail square on the head. I will tell you, no conversation ever functions effectively when a person’s eye contact is poor. Right. And you can do that with a child. Think about when you’re talking to a child. And I’m not saying adults or children, but there’s behaviors that we learn through our life that really drive what we respond to. And typically when we’re talking to a child, we’ll get down, we’ll look them in the eye and say, no, Sally, you can’t do that. We don’t turn away. We don’t look sideways. We keep our eyes locked. permanently in front of that, that’s a real thing. As a matter of fact, it’s the most important technique you’ll ever learn is that when you are being sincere, it is going to be communicated through body language. It’s gonna be communicated through facial expression, but it’s gonna be communicated 90% by keeping eye contact with that person. And by showing empathy, or however it’s going to be by keeping on. Sincerity comes from, and truth comes from, having eye contact directly in a discussion with a human being. It’s really important. And it’s really important in checking for understanding, right? That I look you in the eye and go, so is there anything I just said that needs clarity? Is there anything I just said that needs clarity? And giving eye contact in that moment is powerful.

Hugh Ballou:
What I learned in my corporate coach training is to also leave silence. After you ask a question, or after they finish talking really, leave some silence before responding. Because that’s where we are sure that we’re clear, and they are sure that we’ve heard them. There’s other little pieces. So there’s a lot of ways that leaders set up these problems. So we got this great frame. and for the best and then we’ve got this four by five now let’s just fill in a little more boy this is this is so helpful i want to point out to people who either whether you’re watching this video or you’re listening to it on a podcast There’s a lot of data going by really fast. The notes, the transcript for this interview are on the nonprofit exchange.org. So don’t fret. You can go there and you can get all these great tips in writing. So, Noel, let’s get into the seven steps, seven steps of effective training.

Noel Massie:
You know, the most important thing that I impart to leaders and what I learned in 40 plus years of working in a heavily active environment with delivery vehicles and aircraft and trains and complexity and sorting systems is nothing can be left to chance when you talk about, does someone know the requirement of the position? Nothing can be left to chance. You can’t let someone get behind a commercial vehicle and there be any doubt on how that needs to be done. The seven steps of effective training gives the leader an ability to know what their people know and don’t know. And the most important responsibility of the leader is to know what your people know, know what your people don’t know. And the way you validate that is by using a technique that will tell you that, period. I don’t care if it’s an attorney, I don’t care if it’s a truck driver doesn’t really matter to profession. It’s irrelevant. You need to know what your people know and don’t know. And if you don’t know what they know, then you can’t support any activity they perform. in any way that creates issues later. You just can’t, right? So seven steps of effective training is a technique like the four by five method that gives seven specific steps in a training engagement. And the fact of the matter is, is the leader must be able to demonstrate what they want. It starts with that one, where you demonstrate the task or the position, the steps in the position or job, driving a forklift, I’ll use that again, that you want to make sure that person knows. So you get on the forklift and if it’s 37 steps, you demonstrate the first five while you say what they are to the person. Step one, secure the brake. Step two, key in the ignition. Step three, check for the left hydraulics to make sure they’re functioning. You stop. You go, okay, Hugh, what’s step one? He goes secure the brake. Step two, put the key in the ignition. Step three, secure the hydraulics, okay? So he just repeated the three steps back to me. Then I go to step four. And then, and I go step four. Whatever that is, step five, whatever that is, step six. And then I say, OK, now you repeat steps four, five and six. And he goes, step four is blah, step five is blah, step six. OK, now we’re going to do all seven. What’s step one? Secure the break. What’s step two? Insert the key. What’s step three? The hydraulic. OK, now what’s step four? The seven steps of training is the supervisor demonstrates the entire position. While speaking each step to the employee, Step two of the seven steps is the employee repeats each step back to the trainer as you proceed through the process. And that’s really, without going through all of it, ultimately where you end up is in step five, the employee has to teach you that job. Now they have to teach you like you’re the employee and they’re the teacher, and you now can validate they know all 37 steps. So think about this. Later on, the hydraulics not secured, calamity happens, and you go to Hugh and go, Hugh, what’s step three? Secure the hydraulic. OK, so why did the hydraulic just fall down and blah, blah, blah? I didn’t secure it. There you go, right? So the seven steps of training with the best principle, be clear. In the beginning of the training, expect the best. Hugh, I know you’re going to pay attention. Stick the objective. We’re going through 37 steps. Test commitment. Repeat each step back to me. The training of seven steps goes inside the best principle. To produce an effective, predictable, predict, this is important, a predictable outcome.

Hugh Ballou:
And you have nurtured it. And there may be some small nonprofits listening to this say, wow, this is important to me. We do not invest in training our people. You know, there are, there are forklifts and nonprofits. If your food, you know, food charity, there’s thousands of those. So the point I’m getting is we’re empowering people to step up on their own performance, which is their passion is why, why they’re there. We got about four minutes less than this interview. So let’s just talk about your, your daily messaging. And then, um, want to do a wrap up here, the daily messaging with team. Why is that important?

Noel Massie:
You know, first I’ll say the reason it’s important to everyone is that there’s no day in the life of a leader that you don’t talk to people. OK. And then so fundamentally, why do you talk to them? Because you want them to retain what you said. So just stop there. You’re going to talk to people every day. You want them to retain what was discussed. And sometimes it’s really important because it’s a procedure or a change in policy or here’s the plan for tomorrow, whatever it is. And professionalism is important. Here’s where leaders lose their way the most, whether they’re the CEO or the frontline leader, is they fail to remember they’re always being evaluated. There’s no casual moment in leadership. OK, all you got to do is ask that CEO that was at the Coldplay concert with his HR manager recently and went viral, right? You’re the leader. People are looking at you all the time. Professionalism matters. And when you’re speaking, it matters more. Daily messaging with your team should be thought through. It shouldn’t be arbitrary and abstract. What are you going to say? Tell them what you’re going to tell them. Then tell them. Then tell them what you told them. Real simple. Right. Open with an attention getter because people are looking at their phones and milling around and you open with attention getter. I got 10 people in the room and I go, group, I’d like to recognize you. who has just celebrated 10 years with the company, let’s give them a hand. Okay, now I had their attention. They’re looking at me. Now, today I’m going to talk about X, Y, or Z and why X, Y, or Z is important. And then I talk about X, Y, or Z. And today we talked about X, Y, or Z. And the real key message is blah. Whether it’s emergency evacuations, whether it’s just procedure change, it gives a professional approach every day for that five minute opening day discussion with your team. Daily messaging with your team is exactly that. It’s not intended to be used for an hour long talk. It’s for that three to five minute We’re going to be, you know, professional moment. It sets the tone. It sets the table. And it’s a really important skill, especially, especially for frontline leaders to possess.

Hugh Ballou:
I’ve got a closing question, but before that, I noticed in all of what you’re talking about, the element of listening. You have demonstrated that you’ve paid attention and listened to people. That’s a very underutilized leadership skill. So folks, there’s just a lot in this book. This isn’t just theory. This is stuff, and Noel, I’m writing some books and stuff, and I’ve done this a long time. These are very consistent with what I teach and I know they work, but yours is a lot more in depth than what I write. So as a close, you talk about in the book, you can’t get more than you give. Talk about that as a closing thought for people.

Noel Massie:
So I want your listeners to understand that a failure to invest in the skill and abilities of the people that report to you Failure to develop and failure to invest, like this company I was with yesterday, will produce outcomes that you cannot predict or measure. You can’t hope to get more from individuals that you invest in those individuals. And the irony of that is if you go to a bank and go, I want to withdraw. And they go, sure. How much money you got in there? You go, nothing. Okay, they’re gonna go, yeah, right. Okay, that ain’t gonna happen. Okay, employees see the world the same way. You go to employees and go, I like withdrawal. I’d like you to be outstanding at what you do. And they go, okay, what’d you invest? Well, nothing. Okay, well, that ain’t gonna happen. I mean, the world really works like that. You can’t hope to get more than you give. And Jim Casey, the founder of UPS, James E. Casey, who built one of the biggest private supply chain companies in the world from a bicycle messenger company, is where I got that phrase over 40 years ago. And he was right.

Hugh Ballou:
Amazing. I’ve been so inspired today. Thank you for coming back to part two. This completes a lot more. So I encourage people Get this book. You have been promoted and it means a lot more than you think it does. Noel, thanks so much for being my guest today.

Noel Massie:
Hey Hugh, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the discussion and I look forward to future conversations between you and I. Blessings.