Easy Hard vs Hard Hard: Finding Work that Matters and Freeing Yourself of Working for the Approval of Others

Bobby Shelton is an accomplished entrepreneur, International Coaching Federation (ICF) Associate Certified Coach (ACC), and recently completed a Doctor of Strategic Leadership (DSL) degree from Liberty University. Over the past 15 years, he has worked as a business owner, demonstrating exceptional leadership and business acumen providing project management and professional services to government and private industry customers. In addition to his professional accomplishments, Bobby has undergone a remarkable personal transformation losing over 150 pounds, successfully maintaining the weight loss, and significantly improving my overall health and well-being. This journey also resulted in reversing decades of depression and anxiety and improvements in his mental, physical, and spiritual health. Bobby’s journey has inspired him to help others avoid the mistakes that he made, find the right work for them, and reclaim mental and physical health.

Overview:

 

The Interview Transcript

Hugh Ballou

Greetings, this is the Nonprofit Exchange. This is Hugh Ballou, founder and president of SynerVision Leadership Foundation. We work with leaders creating synergy by being very clear with your vision. So today on the Nonprofit Exchange, we welcome Bobby Shelton. He’s the creator of the easy hard versus the hard hard framework. And you’re going to find out about this. Bobby challenges leaders to examine the difference between work that feels hard but simply keeps us busy and the deeper work that transforms lives and organizations, which is so important to the work we do as nonprofit leaders and faith leaders. His message to nonprofit leaders and clergy is clear. The mission you carry matters too much to spend your energy on the wrong kind of hard. Through reflection, accountability, and intentional leadership, Bobby helps leaders move from exhaustion and external validation toward clarity, conviction, and lasting impact. So, Bobby, welcome. Let’s begin with the foundation of your work. What’s the difference between easy hard and hard hard, and why does this distinction matter so much for those of us who are nonprofit leaders and clergy?

Bobby Shelton

Well, first of all, thank you, Hugh, for having me on today. It’s a privilege and an honor to be here. So Easy Hard versus Hard Hard is a concept that I created because I myself was a leader, as I’m sure so many in your audience are. Hard chargers, always working, driven people. Well, what I was finding is over the years, I was working many hours a day, really grinding at my job, being very successful in what I did. But at the same time, I went to bed feeling empty. because I found that I was chasing doing, which I now call easy hard, versus being, which is the hard hard. And the real distinction there is easy hard is work that you do for others. Maybe it’s applause, maybe it’s for metrics, maybe it’s for KPIs, whatever your organization or your personally tracking, that’s what overtakes you. And so you start focusing on doing, whereas hard hard is your being. And what are you as a person? What fulfills you? What is the work that actually matters to you versus chasing metrics, chasing numbers, chasing growth at the expense of your own self and your own wellbeing?

Hugh Ballou

So I hear so many people say, Oh, I’m so busy. So how does being busy create the illusion of progress?

Bobby Shelton

Well, because in society today, people like to brag about how many hours they work or how many customers they have or how many employees they have. And it’s all these metrics, right? I’m a small business owner myself, and no one ever ask me any other question other than, well, how much revenue did you generate? Or how many employees do you have? It’s all numbers based, right? And so the mind, because we read all these books and we see successful people, we think that we have to just keep working, working, working and stay busy, fill our calendars, fill our days with all these things. But what we do in that process is we neglect ourselves. So it’s very easy for busy people to look successful on the outside, but inside they’re denying themselves, either their desires or their well-being, their learning. They’ve basically, like I like to say, they’ve outsourced who they are to what they do.

Hugh Ballou

Whoa, whoa, whoa. So, I’m still getting and I’m sure people are trying to get on board with me on the difference between the two. Let’s just probe a little deeper because this is a wholly different idea. So, thank you for this brain-stretching opportunity. So, why does Easy Hard, dig in a little deeper here, why does Easy Hard feel responsible and productive even when it’s draining meaning from our work?

Bobby Shelton

I think it’s just the culture, you know, as Americans, it’s always work hard, work hard, you’ve got to go to school, you’ve got to get this degree, you’ve got to get this certification. Everything is push, push, push, push, push. And very rarely, people always ask you, even though common phrase, how are you doing? it brings us to what the work we’re doing. Like, how about if we change that parameter and that definition or how we introduce ourselves to people? How are you being or how is your soul? And that’s the whole thing is like, we get so caught up in, like I said before, the metrics and the improvement because leadership, a lot of times you don’t become a leader because you are good at leading people a lot of times. You become a leader because you’re good at doing whatever it is. If you’re an engineer, if you’re a pastor, if you’re a musician, you get in these leadership roles over time. But yet, so that’s kind of the carrot and the stick, right? The carrot is always do more, and the stick is to beat yourself when you do take a moment of rest, or you go pursue a hobby, or you do these kind of things. So easy heart, I think, is just a natural part of our society because that’s the way we’re built. And I also think that a negative side of it is that’s why you see so many people burned out, stressed, or quit. Because they get on this treadmill that’s going way too fast for them. They’re not meeting themselves where they are. They can’t compete with the world around them and the metrics and the promotions and all this fun stuff. So they quit. So it’s like a double-edged sword, right? For the high performer, you might gain the whole world on one side, but lose yourself in the process. And then a lot of people lose themselves and lose the world because it’s such a game that they’re playing versus if they just focused on what they really want to be. And this is where I think leadership, leaders in general, need to step up. allow people to do what they need to do. I don’t know if you know the common definition of leadership is getting people to do something they normally wouldn’t want to do. How about if we change that? How about if leadership to us is getting people the resources, time and ability to be their full selves, I mean, imagine how we could change our organizations, change our churches, change our companies. It would just be massive. I went on a little diatribe there.

Hugh Ballou

It’s very essential. So people are tuning in now. If you’re just tuning in, this is the nonprofit exchange. I’m talking with Bobby Shelton. It’s Dr. Bobby Shelton, I believe. And about this hard, hard, easy, hard thing. You’ve got a book about this, don’t you? Yes, sir.

Bobby Shelton

Yes, sir. And say the same. Here’s a copy of it right here. Easy hard versus hard hard. And, you know, like I said in the beginning, this is my personal journey. This is how I had to understand how I was living my life. Or let me rephrase that. How I wasn’t living my life. I was caught up in titles, money, progression, but I found that every day I didn’t want to be with myself. I didn’t like myself. I didn’t love myself. About a year ago, I made a determination, and that’s what kind of made this book come together. I told my wife one day, I’m not going to get off of this chair until I allow myself to start the process of liking myself. Now, Hugh, I’ve had a company. Yesterday was our 16th year anniversary. On the outside, everything about that seems successful, but why was I going to bed every single night feeling empty? Because I was focused on the wrong things. And I tell you what, I didn’t stop my company. I just reframed the way I did and the way I became after this concept came to me.

Hugh Ballou

So if you’re listening or watching this episode and you can’t get all these down, don’t worry. You don’t need to take notes of what he’s saying. There’s a transcript, thenonprivateexchange.org. There’ll be a full transcript. You can get all these great soundbites and ideas and actually have time to reflect on them. So we’re gonna continue to give you more data. So Bobby, The concept in the book, we can find it on your website, which we’re going to visit later, but it’s available, I guess, on Amazon and other places readily. So there’s a lot. The reason you’re here on this show today is because the themes that you’re discussing are common themes, the burnout theme with non-private leaders. Now, it may not be about our wealth or our or other things that you talked about, but we go into this warp speed mode, we got to serve others, and we continually empty ourselves, and we don’t take care of ourselves. So how does this easy heart show up in non-profit leadership and ministries?

Bobby Shelton

You know, I think anytime you start doing something, you do it because you want to do it. And then you get promoted, you start building an organization, and you start serving more, serving more, serving more. You get more clients, you get more parishioners, you get more people that are interested in the product that you’re offering. And you start losing your being because your internal desire was to help people. So whether you’re running a non-profit and doing good for the community, or you’re a parishioner and you’re in a church and you’re serving your congregation, you want to do more. the more people you get, the more time it gets. A lot of people don’t employ the concept of who, not how. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that or read that book. It’s not my concept, but you know, leaders a lot of times want to know how to do everything. And so we keep, and we don’t outsource the who. I don’t need to know everything as a leader. In fact, the less I know, the more I enable my people, my parishioners, whatever you’re dealing with, To go out and do more. So we take these responsibilities Like I said earlier most leaders are highly functional people. They’re highly motivated. They’re highly aggressive. They’re going out there Well, there comes a point we’re doing so many things you lose yourself And I think this is very applicable to anything you do whether you’re a nonprofit, you know business owner pastor of a church or a congregation whatever you’re doing and or a father or mother.

Hugh Ballou

So let’s hone in on the hard hard. So what does hard hard actually require of a leader? And why is it often quieter and less visible than easy hard?

Bobby Shelton

Yeah, that’s a great question because hard hard is probably the thing that started us down whatever path we’re on, right? It is the why, if you will. It is who we are, who we’re being, what we want to do to serve others. And it’s not impressive because it’s you in the mirror. It’s you when no one’s watching. It’s you on that 4 a.m. wake up because you’ve got to go do whatever you do for your day. You know, you’re on your jog, whatever it is. It’s, there’s no, it’s all internal. So there’s extrinsic motivation, which means you’re motivated by something outside of you. Intrinsic is you. And that’s where it is. And that is the quietest place you can be. So there is no applause. You can be completely intrinsically motivated and maybe no one ever really knows, right? Because it’s doing what you need to do. And at the end of the day, I believe in a concept called self-leadership. It’s self-leadership theory means you cannot lead others until you lead yourself. Well, the hard hard is self-leadership to the core because you’re leading yourself. You’re doing what you want to do. And this doesn’t mean just your nine to five. This means every action you do. It’s wisdom. It’s discipline. It’s not being distracted by anything. And that’s what I see a lot of times why a lot of people don’t like it, because the distractions aren’t there. It is raw truth. And it begins with self-assessment, self-evaluation. Self-leadership has anything self-dash at it, for those who don’t know that theory. But it’s so true. And again, a lot of people say, well, that’s selfish. Well, no, you can’t pour from an empty cup. But yet so many leaders, and I’m pointing the finger at me here, folks, I was so empty on the inside, I got to the point where I didn’t like myself. And imagine the noise that that has. That’s way worse than any kind of applause or any kind of failure that you may see at an organizational level. You gotta love yourselves.

Hugh Ballou

So Bobby, we are basically entrepreneurs. We’re social entrepreneurs. We’re impacting people’s lives. We’re working outside of a corporate structure. So what I know, being an entrepreneur, is we get distracted. So how do we say no? Because that’s comfortable. We want to do things. So two parts to this question. How do we say no? What does it look like doing that? Say no to those comforting distractions. At the same time, we’re in this for the long haul. So how do we have patience? Because we know it’s coming, but it’s not gonna come instantly.

Bobby Shelton

Yeah, you said it right there, patience. When you’re building something, it is very easy to go look at something. Take my book, take my podcast. It’s very easy to go to a website and look at numbers. But what do numbers matter? Like if 100,000 people look at my book or look at my podcast for a second, then somehow that gives me satisfaction because it’s a number that I can put in my brain and say, oh man, I’m being successful. But if those 100,000 people just look at it and don’t do anything with it, and they don’t improve their lives, and they don’t become better people, better society members, better husbands, fathers, whatever your title is, then what good is it, right? And I see that so much in business too. You start with a great idea. I want to serve a customer. I want to serve a parishioner. Whatever you’re doing, it easily gets distracted because one week you might have 12 people and the next week you have 24, but then what do you do when it’s 12 again? And those numbers start tricking our brains because, again, we’re mathematical creatures, right? Everything that we’ve learned in life are numbers, right? I mean, we buy eggs by the dozen, we buy meat by the pound, all these, because it’s easy for us to understand. What’s not easy is that slow growth, that patience, that building a culture or a product or a message that you get out for people. And it’s easy to do. I mean, the world is stacked against us in this, right? I mean, you can turn on the TV and numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. Everyone’s selling you something all the time. What I’m saying is slow down and sell to yourself. Sell your message. Make sure it’s intact. Make sure it’s there every single day. That’s the hard heart.

Hugh Ballou

Now, I’m a pleaser. I love all of what you’re saying. I’m a pleaser. Let’s go to another dimension of this. I want people to be happy with me. I’m also a performer. I’m a musical conductor. We live for applause. We’ve got an audience. So that’s really not healthy for those of us who are leading. We’re not leading for people’s approval. So many non-profit leaders work unconsciously for approval. So how does that distort our decision making, and what can we do differently?

Bobby Shelton

Well, approval is a weird thing, because someone may tell you, hey, Hugh, that was a great concert, or that was a great speech that you gave, or something like that, right? But you really don’t know what they’re thinking. And you hear enough approval, and you think, oh, well, Bobby wants to hear this music. Bobby wants this. No, because you never know what I’m thinking. So chasing someone else’s approval is like chasing the horizon. You can run all day, but you’re never going to catch that horizon, because you never know. The only person you know who’s thinking what they’re thinking is yourself. And I guarantee you at the end of the day, yeah, you want to please people. You want to produce great product. And I’m by all means not saying that. We should be excellent in everything we do. but we should be conscious and cognizant of what we’re giving of ourselves to get there.

Hugh Ballou

Yo. Again, these great sound bites you can find on the website. You can go back and review all this great content. So just make notes about what you’re going to do about Bobby. This whole thing is about what can we do differently. I’m learning today. I hope everybody else is. So, burnout. I see, and it’s been coming for a long time, it’s been here a long time, over 50% of nonprofit leaders are experiencing burnout and leaving. And a large percentage of the others are burned out and staying, which it really impacts their effectiveness, their work. So why is burnout a symptom of easy, hard rather than true mission alignment?

Bobby Shelton

I think burnout is probably one of the best signals that you’re in the easy hard. Because when you find work that fills your soul every day, you’re not looking at metrics, you’re not looking at numbers, you are living the life that you’re called to do. You’re serving others, you’re providing product and services that they want, right? And burnout is a lot like procrastination in my mind. People say procrastination is they don’t want to do the work. Well, they do want to do the work. Either they’re too scared or they think that the work will go unnoticed, right? If you’re truly in your hard, hard zone or you’ve really found your why, I’m sure we’ve all had an instance in our life where this has happened. Time seems to stand still. No matter how much work you have to do, you wake up and you get excited. A lot of people say, I have to go to work today. A truly aligned individual who’s living their hard hard says, I’m excited I get to go to work today. So that little semantic things that we say to ourselves is another sign. And the more you say, I have to, I have to, I have to, it sounds like a burden, right? But when you say, I get to, that burnout doesn’t exist because you’re happy about it. You know, a lot of coaches and a lot of leadership people will say, change your state. And I used to think that was crazy. But if you can change your state, and feel happy about what you’re doing, you’re probably not gonna have the burnout. And another thing you mentioned was, well, burnout is damaging. Well, yeah, because a lot of people feel like they’re stuck in whatever they’re doing. They’re like, well, I’ve run this nonprofit for 20 years, 30 years, even if it’s five years, I’m really good at it. Well, but is it really good for you? And it’s all about that mirror. You’ve got to look in the mirror and ask yourself questions that you might be scared to answer. But if you can look in the mirror and say, is this good for me? And the answer is no, then either you’ve got to change the way you approach that work, or maybe it’s time to pass the baton to someone else. And again, I’m not a burn the bridges guy here. It’s not something you can work on it. I mean, like I told you, I went from being depressed, anxious, down and out. five, six years ago, I never once sold my company. I’m still doing the same thing, I’m just doing it differently.

Hugh Ballou

That is a profound statement. I’m not changing what I’m doing, I’m doing it differently. So we’ve got a lot of ideas. Now let’s talk about how our audience can apply those to non-private leadership work or the clergy work. So if a leader pauses before their next major decision, what question should they ask?

Bobby Shelton

I think the most basic question anyone could ask, is this who I am? Is this who or what I want to be doing? We all have things in our lives that we have to do, pay taxes, things that aren’t fun for everyone. But take that aside. Is the work I’m doing, is the way I’m going to show up to this meeting this day something I really want to do? And then you can take that one of two ways. You can decide, hey, this is no longer my passion. I’ve been ignoring my passion for so long. Or you can say, I’m just going to change the way I approach it. Another one, I know you asked for one question. I’m going to give you one other one real quick, because you can ask yourself, what have I told myself time and time again I want to do, but I haven’t been doing it? So many of us say, Hugh, you’ve written a book. I’ve written a book. Well, you’ve written a lot of books. How many people come up to you and say, Hugh, I always wanted to write a book? Or I always wanted to conduct an orchestra? Or whatever it is, put it in there. If you’re saying that to people more often than you’re saying, hey, here’s my book. I think it’ll help you on your path or, you know, here are my thoughts written down or something like that. Maybe that too is your easy heart and maybe it’s time to change. And we’ve all gotten that way because we’re all in a rut and it’s hard because you’re doing the same thing time and time again. But if it’s something that you’ve said to yourself repeatedly, the human brain is an amazing thing. If you tell your brain something and you don’t do it, it becomes increasingly harder every time you start doing it again. So if you’ve done this for days, weeks, months, years, it’s very hard. So I’m not telling everyone this is easy. I’m telling you, you can do it, but ask yourself, is this what I want to do? And what have I not been doing that I really want to do?

Hugh Ballou

Love it. Now we’re going to show your website as it is today. And when people actually go there, it’s going to look a little different. I think you told me. So let me grab it real quick. So give us the link. What’s the URL for people to find you? It’s the name of your book, right?

Bobby Shelton

Yeah. Yeah. Name of the book, www.easy, hard versus hard, hard.com. And this will show you. And again, this is going to change the easy, hard versus hard, hard podcast no longer exists. It’s now been renamed as the self leadership lab, but all those episodes are still there. Um, where I, I did a series where I outlined every chapter of the book, kind of give more history about why I got there, my thoughts and reflections on that. And then it’s now turned into more of an interview series, such as this podcast, where I bring on different leaders and we talk because I, I firmly believe that like my path is not your path. We are truly all ends of one. So, you know, like Burger King used to say, have it your own way. That’s how you’ve got to do your progress. Make it yours. Take what I say, take what Hugh says, take what anyone you listen to or read says, make it your own, find out what works for you. But yeah, this is where you can get me. It’s got a link, I think, on the second page to the book. Right now it’s only on Amazon, but yeah.

Hugh Ballou

The site is the same as the book, Easy Hard versus Hard Hard, with no dots, no dashes. So let’s do a series of focus questions in the last few minutes we have here. So what is one immediate step a leader could take this week to move from Easy Hard to Hard Hard?

Bobby Shelton

Take a pause, look in the mirror, ask that question. Is this what I want to be doing? Maybe ask a second question. Am I the person that I was when I started this? Get back to that initial fire, that initial route, and I think it’ll open up the pathway for you to getting back to the work that matters to you.

Hugh Ballou

If I feel overwhelmed, what is my personal filter for deciding between easy hard and hard hard?

Bobby Shelton

I think pause. So many leaders, we’re so busy, we don’t take time to pause. And I’m not talking about the pause that other coaches and leadership experts are gonna tell you where you gotta think about the business and thinking the business, all that kind of thing. No, take time to completely unplug. Take a walk without headphones. Whatever floats your boat, really pause because in the silent moments, that’s when our mind and our heart reveals to us and listen to it. Because your mind is going to tell you, we all ultimately know what easy heart versus hard heart is, but we have to be quiet with ourselves. We have to turn the phones off, turn the, turn the lights off, whatever it takes for you. Just pause, meditate on it, pray on it. But you know, and just listen to your heart and follow that.

Hugh Ballou

What a great episode today. So, Bobby, your message challenges us to pause before each decision and ask, is this easy hard or hard hard? As nonprofit leaders and clergy, the work we do matters too much to settle for activity that drains meaning from our mission. The hard, hard path costs more up front, but it creates deeper impact. greater freedom, and lasting joy. Bobby, thank you so much for helping our audience, Ruth and me, think how they lead so they can choose purpose over approval and intention over exhaustion. So, don’t forget, the link is EasyHardVSvsHardHard. You can find it and Bobby’s making changes to that every day. So you got to go there several times to see what’s new. Bobby, thank you for being our guest and sharing your wisdom today with our audience on the nonprofit exchange.

Bobby Shelton

Thank you.